T stock up for sale

[PhilJ W]

The Spa Valley Railway is putting the two remaining Metropolitan 'T' stock cars up for sale.

http://www.spavalleyrailway.co.uk/enthusiasts/For_Sale/

[roythebus]

They've been listed for sale for quite a while now.

[Xerces Fobe2]

Put them back in the bay at Rickmansworth Station as a static exhibit would  be a fitting tribute seeing that they spent their last few years there.

 

XF

[roythebus]

Yes, I trained on them in Ricky bay in 1973!!

[Nedrahn]

It seems very sad that the Spa Valley has never made much of an effort with the last two T Stock cars, but of course it all comes down to money and priorities. I did have a ride in one on the Spa Valley, so at least one car has been used (I seem to recall the seating had received the same covering as refurbished EPBs). 

 

I wouldn't wish to see them end up on static display and prone to vandalism. The obvious home for them is in the LT collection (whatever it's called these days). Failing that, how about Epping-Ongar? Given that the latter is trying to offload the CIG (boo!), possibly it wouldn't welcome the T Stock. Dream scenario - T Stock to EOR, CIG to Spa Valley or East Kent, and someone with deep pockets to pay for it all. One can dream.

 

Barclay 0-4-0DM "Princess Margaret" is also for sale, apparently requiring considerable work. As this has Kent pedigree, it would be good if the shunter could be restored, but it would have to be a labour of love. I suspect there's not much call for small, slow, four-wheeled shunters that need lots of money spending on them! Perhaps Andrew Briddon could be persuaded...?

[Dava]

These are historic, unique survivors with operational potential so hopefully they will find a good home.

 

Dava

[roythebus]

The T stock has air brakes so is incompatible for most steam railways, which use vacuum brakes. The only air braked line is the IWSR. And the Bluebell diesels (dons tin hat and ducks for cover).

[Oldddudders]

The T stock has air brakes so is incompatible for most steam railways, which use vacuum brakes. The only air braked line is the IWSR. And the Bluebell diesels (dons tin hat and ducks for cover).

But the Spa Valley is ex-LBSCR, which was an air-brake railway, I think.

[PhilJ W]

When they were part of the 'brake block testing train' they ran with the Metropolitan Bo-Bo locomotive (Sarah Siddons) and I understand that the controls are still intact. If suitable motors can be found and the unit be restored to running order it could perhaps be run with the Bo-Bo again, replacing the diesel that normally is attached to the other end of its train. 

[Gwiwer]

These cars have had a chequered history since they were withdrawn from LT passenger service.  They were retained as ESL118A and B (Electric Sleet Locomotive) which was a designation given by LT to non-passenger vehicles equipped as de-icing cars.  Based at Neasden they made a few forays on the then newly electrified route to Amersham and to Watford.  I don't recall them running to Uxbridge but no doubt they did when required.

 

They then lay idle at Neasden depot for many years having been replaced by more recent technology which allowed A-stock units to run de-icing trips and the line voltage to be cranked up out of traffic hours to warm the conductor rails slightly.

 

They are the last survivors of a generation of Metropolitan Railway rolling stock introduced as the MV and MW stock, later converted and reclassified T-stock.  Despite flickers of interest over the years they have passed through several ownerships I believe but little has happened to ensure their permanent future.

 

They could perhaps be re-homed at the Bluebell and be running mates with the Chesham stock.  That would be appropriate.  I would consider it less satisfactory were they to be "sent to Coventry" despite the significant collection of electric units there.  It would be a travesty if they were lost forever at this stage but the first step is to secure their purchase.  I sincerely hope they fare better than the supposedly "preserved" Bulleid 4DD unit of which the surviving coaches were seen to be in a very poor condition and may be beyond recall after many years of neglect.

[LNERGE]

The T stock has air brakes so is incompatible for most steam railways, which use vacuum brakes. The only air braked line is the IWSR.

And Nene Valley.

[Xerces Fobe2]

 

 

 

The line voltage to be cranked up out of traffic hours to warm the conductor rails slightly.

 

 

 

 

It is not voltage that warms conductor rail up - you need a load that draws more current - No train in section -no load

 

XF

[Classsix T]

And Nene Valley.

...or any line in the country that has a dual or air fitted locomotive for that matter.

[298]

The problem is (as I see it), like in the early days of BR, preserved railways have needed to standardise and maximise the number of seats per coach, hence why Mk1 TSO's are popular but others such as FK's and pre-nationalisation types less so in every day traffic.

 

I recently read a comment elsewhere from someone saying preserved lines "should get more Mk2's". Which would have been relevant for fairly new projects who haven't been able to purchase much else, but ignores the fact that only the early types have vacuum brakes, which most railways use as standard.

[phil-b259]

I could be wrong -  but maybe its something to do with their width. Now the Spa Valley run alongside NR into Eridge they are subject to quite a lot of restrictions on what NR will allow (both in size terms and construction methods - I think 4 wheelers are prohibited for example) and given they are the landlord what they say goes. Hence the decision to sell the two Polish tank engines (one sold to the Churnut Valley, the other one still on the market) because they are too wide for NR to accept so are of no use when trains run to Eridge.

[Gwiwer]

It is not voltage that warms conductor rail up - you need a load that draws more current - No train in section -no load

 

XF

 

This is the method I was referring to and have been familiar with :

 

 

 

The last reminisce of the LUL conductor rail short-circuiting system was removed in early 2008. It was tried at a number of locations (mainly on the Metropolitan Line). As the earlier poster correctly pointed out, the lengths of conductor rail short-circuited were in the order of several kilometres so the short circuit currents didn't exceed the direct acting settings on the DC brakers (often in the region 5000 Amps to 7000 Amps) on LUL. It had not been used since the mid to 1970's as far as we could gather. The equipment removed in 2008 was installed in 1962. 

 

It typically operated by means of a remote breaker in a track side hut at a remote location on the line. The short circuit was instigated by a novel means of a step up transformer (230V to 600 V ac) which was supplied from the sub-station LV ac auxiliary board. The 600 V ac supply was then run track side for the several kilometres to the trackside hut (presumably because running it at 230 V single phase at that voltage was not feasible) to energise the closing coil on the short-circuiting breaker. I never managed to get a definitve answer as to why a DC feed was not used to energise the breaker from the sub-station. 

 

Today, de-icing of the third rail on both LUL and NR is achieved by use of de-icing fluid (Propylene Glycol or other anti-freeze) dispensed from suitably equipped stock passenger stock.

 

 

C&P'd from http://www.theiet.org/forums/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=227&threadid=34706

 

 

[EddieB]

But the Spa Valley is ex-LBSCR, which was an air-brake railway, I think.

...and Ongar was Great Eastern, also an air-brake railway.

 

Just need to fit a Westinghouse pump on the T stock...

[Lord Summerisle]

Perhaps I'm being naive, but could Quainton Road not be an appropriate destination for these two, seeing as they are former Met vehicles.

[roythebus]

Discussing the stock with an eminent IWSR member, he points out that the springing needs re-designing since the motors and traction equipment were removed, making the coaches a couple of tons lighter. There's also repairs needed on the buffers and draw gear as well as various body repairs.

 

The stock would have been fitted with a compressor too to provide air for the Westinghouse brake, but unless you've got 650 volts lying around, it's as much use as a handbrake in a canoe.

[PenrithBeacon]

£20k for the pair seems a little optimistic. I think the scrappy beckons.

 

Regards

[roythebus]

I doubt these will go for scrap, but from discussions with the IWSR and the Spa Valley, there's a lot of work needs doing. I think the timetable for moving the stock from the line would make such a move impossible in the 5 weeks or so left before the end of July deadline.

[roythebus]

I went to have a look at the T stock yesterday evening; both coaches have been graffiti'd but that is not an insurmountable problem as they'll need a repaint anyway. The ineteriors have obviously has a lot of work done to bring them back to passenger carrying standard, though damp has crept in and some of the seat moquette has mould and mildew.

 

Luckily none of the interiors have been vandalised. The doors and droplights seem to work, though some are a bit stiff through being stored in the damp area at Groombridge. there's a few roof leaks and interestingly, the roofs appear to be steel sheet.

 

I'd be interested to know if anyone has the dimensions of these cars and unladen weight, remembering the traction motors have been removed and the switchgear removed from one of the cars. Would they come under the BR Restriction 0 I wonder?

[PhilJ W]

I went to have a look at the T stock yesterday evening; both coaches have been graffiti'd but that is not an insurmountable problem as they'll need a repaint anyway. The ineteriors have obviously has a lot of work done to bring them back to passenger carrying standard, though damp has crept in and some of the seat moquette has mould and mildew.

 

Luckily none of the interiors have been vandalised. The doors and droplights seem to work, though some are a bit stiff through being stored in the damp area at Groombridge. there's a few roof leaks and interestingly, the roofs appear to be steel sheet.

 

I'd be interested to know if anyone has the dimensions of these cars and unladen weight, remembering the traction motors have been removed and the switchgear removed from one of the cars. Would they come under the BR Restriction 0 I wonder?

They are 51' 10" long over headstocks and 8' 9" wide over body.

[Gwiwer]

They are 51' 10" long over headstocks and 8' 9" wide over body.

 

Not even Restriction 1 then never mind 0