robmcg Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 Having just purchased a Hornby R2965 A4 2509 'Silver Fox' I am confronted with the dilemma, buy the toy-like Stanier-derived silver carriages offered I think from the 1990s or try to adapt any current RTR carriages to suit? The silver-painted Staniers with Gresley bogies are a fair attempt perhaps at a toy-like representation, and I'm sure I could photoshop them into partial submission, but any and all suggests are welcome, short of building my own carriages. Cheers, the engine (below) the old Hornby carriages (below) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 As far as I know Rob, there are no accurate RTR coaches for this train. You have said yourself that these are a fiction and I agree (and it really burns me that Hornby continue to fob these horrors off on the public). One of the issues with the RTR industry is that they can churn out marvelous locomotives but rarely go to the trouble of producing coaches to match. When they do we have to wait ages to get to the shelves. I'm not sufficiently knowledgable to advise on the specific coaches you need. Comet models have a good selection of parts and kits. If you had correct length RTR coaches that were surplus, you could replace the sides with Comet ones of the correct diagram. Another place to check is 247 Developments. Tony Wright has covered replacement sides in this thread on this forum I think - he is an LNER man. John Edit: Here's a link to give you an idea of the actual train makeup: http://elegantsteam.com/silver_jubilee_whole%20train.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmcg Posted June 27, 2014 Author Share Posted June 27, 2014 Indeed it would be a bit of a mission to create/scratch-build a good Silver Jubilee set of carriages, as some have successfully done. I shall have to use photographic ingenuity ( also variously described as 'editing' and 'photoshopping' ) for my picture of 2509. The inspiration of course is the incredible (for the time) reliable fast and punctual operation of this train when introduced, with new engines, double-blocked signals and all the drama which went along with it in A3 and A4 engine performance. Nice to know I can use standard teak Gresley carriages too should I choose. The picture will take a few days, although the model is here already, overnight from the shop, none of this waiting for packages from England.... p.s. were the carriages turned as a set at each end of the journey? I ought perhaps too look closely at the various pics available in my several LNER books... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 Having just purchased a Hornby R2965 A4 2509 'Silver Fox' I am confronted with the dilemma, buy the toy-like Stanier-derived silver carriages offered I think from the 1990s or try to adapt any current RTR carriages to suit? Rob, if you want the toy train version, they are available new in a train pack (R3174) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmcg Posted June 27, 2014 Author Share Posted June 27, 2014 Thanks for that link, it seems Hornby haven't used Gresley bogies as per some earlier versions, so I'll stick with teak corridor Gresleys or possibly some photo-editing tricks. Like smoke and paintbrush mostly ... I have seen photos of the articulated sets used 1935-38 and it's no wonder they are not available in RTR... tricky to build and limited life. Stanier windows look similar to some on the Gresley artics I might copy-paste bits of this and that, and paint silver/grey. Ah, a challenge! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike70 Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 Rob, I recently bought Quicksilver 2510 (R2445) which came with with the three toy like coaches. The two thrid class coaches even have the same running number. Mine are still in the box up in the loft. When I run the loco I'll just use it to pull some of the Gresley teaks. I probably should have waited for a Silver Link to come up rather than buying Quicksilver. Would have preffered the first in the class. However I also like Silver Fox, as it a little bit more unique with the silver cladding bands and it's silver fox plaque. I thought it might have been good to cover the silver fox stickers with silver foxes badges. Regards, Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard Lamb Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 http://www.goldenagemodels.net/LNER-Coaches-OO-Gauge.html Rob. If you have (very) deep pockets you could try these. Bernard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted June 27, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 27, 2014 And we lesser mortals gripe at the cost of the Hornby Gresley teaks.Nice,mind you......ah well,one day...... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markeg Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 Hi Rob, Here is another source for you to view. Again if you have deep pockets. Marcmodels.co.uk. I tried to put the link on this post but that didn't work. We have an updated computer and some things have changed. At GBP240 a coach R-T-R, that's a big chunk out of the pocket. Fortunately I have built and painted a Mailcoach set. It runs very nicely, but not up to the standard of the etch brass kits. Of course you will have to wait for them to come up on ebay or some sale somewhere. No longer produced. Mark in OZ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micklner Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 See here they are similar to Marc Models not a easy build and the coaches are articulated as well . Hornby's are a joke. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/943-lner-models-in-4mm/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 2750 Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 See here they are similar to Marc Models not a easy build and the coaches are articulated as well . Hornby's are a joke. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/943-lner-models-in-4mm/ Hornby's are indeed a joke and I doubt you will ever see correct articulated stock for the Silver Jubilee produced. I've purchased Rupert Brown's Silver Jubilee kit via Wizard Models recently, which will built in a few years. http://www.wizardmodels.co.uk/FrameSetShop.php?DM=wizabout It's listed under Nickel Silver Carriage Carriage kits. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 Now that will be a challenge and a joy to see when done. Shame there's no picture. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeTrice Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 What about the Mailcoach ones, assuming you can get them and find a neat way of painting them? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmcg Posted June 27, 2014 Author Share Posted June 27, 2014 I shall find a way to concoct an articulated set, well, create one digitally for a pic., after I have made a portrait of 2509... thinking of that phenomenal press run in 1935 when 112mph was reached, and according to the story, many passengers were somewhat alarmed by the ride of the carriages, not Nigel Gresley though, and the ride on the cab was smooth, too. I am conscious of the fact that with only 7 or 8 on behind there would have been very little exhaust from an A4, apart from some steam effects in cold air, running mostly on short cut-off and high speed, so there probably weren't even any spectacular starts or 'surmounting the grade' situations. Most pics show at most a grey haze exhaust, and a feather of steam from the safety valves. I like the art of clean fires, believe it or not. It was a marvellous time revolutionising the idea of higher speeds in regular comfort. Now if Golden Age would do me a an 00 triplet set for £120.... what's a missed zero in the price eh? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmcg Posted June 28, 2014 Author Share Posted June 28, 2014 What a beautiful model! So nice I went back to the shop and bought their remaining R2965. I like to think of that period early in the history of the Silver Jubilee when 'Silver Link' handled the express for a full fortnight unaided, with 2510 still being run-in. Time-keeping was exemplary, in July 1936 every arrival at King's Cross was between one and five minutes early, with speeds regularly in the 90s. In the first two years of running the Silver Jubilee articulated sets covered 277,000 miles with only a single failure, a hot box. Silver Link herself was built in eleven weeks. In this tentative first portrait I have added cylinder drains and a few bits and pieces, not least I changed the inspection plates above the wheels to the two-catch type as in contemporary photos of 2509. I raised the ride height at the cab a smidgeon and matched the tender body, and generally enjoyed myself. Rob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 2750 Posted June 29, 2014 Share Posted June 29, 2014 I have one of these, which although it has the incorrect handrail poisition, I'm not going to mess around altering, as it will be near impossible to match the paint. First task before weathering will be to hardwire Analogue and remove the tender pickups (to avoid drag when hauling prototypical trains). Lovely model, goes for a high price on eBay these days. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmcg Posted June 29, 2014 Author Share Posted June 29, 2014 I have one of these, which although it has the incorrect handrail poisition, I'm not going to mess around altering, as it will be near impossible to match the paint. First task before weathering will be to hardwire Analogue and remove the tender pickups (to avoid drag when hauling prototypical trains). Lovely model, goes for a high price on eBay these days. What incorrect handrail position? I used the pic of 2509 on the cover of 'LNER Handbook' by David Wragg, of 2509 in 1937 at Grantham with the up Flying Scotsman, also same pic double page p113-4 in 'LNER 150 ' by Patrick Whitehouse and David St John Thomas, and the Hornby model has identical handrails to the photo. In any event a very attractive engine which was part of the age of fast steam trains on the 1930s. typo edit Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmcg Posted June 30, 2014 Author Share Posted June 30, 2014 In light of which I concocted this picture of the beginning of the Streamliner years, the pic which LNER never had... at least in colour... Slightly more head-on angle than previous pic. Carriages hand-painted with computer and guidance from several images, bogies off Gresley suburbans... Sort-of like the publicity shots of the day, and with a wisp if steam from the whistle... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 ...I am conscious of the fact that with only 7 or 8 on behind there would have been very little exhaust from an A4, apart from some steam effects in cold air, running mostly on short cut-off and high speed, so there probably weren't even any spectacular starts or 'surmounting the grade' situations. Most pics show at most a grey haze exhaust, and a feather of steam from the safety valves. I like the art of clean fires, believe it or not... Many of the photographs flatter to deceive, catching the train on an easy stretch or even coasting with just the blower on. Among others, I have seen a superb unpublished photo of Quicksilver on the 'Silver Bullet' ascending Stoke against a strong wind; the copious exhaust thrown clear and nearly at right angles to the track. It's still a steam loco, albeit efficient for a simple type at 3lb of coal per dbhp hour: when asked to produce a lot of power - like going uphill rapidly with a lot of drag from wind with a head on component- then that coal has to be burned in due proportion, with the resultant exhaust. On the not much heavier Coronation set there were instances of the coal running out, adverse weather making extra demands by a wind induced drag increment, and more power than typical required to run the aircon. The nominal ten ton bunker capacity all burned through after 370 miles had to have made some smoke , somewhere en route... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 WRT smoke, I suspect at high speed you'd get a similar effect to Bittern's trial run which was on YouTube until recently - almost no exhaust, just a heat shimmer, with a black puff of smoke as each shovelful went in.There is some colour footage of the 'Jubilee' on YouTube, is there not?The handrails on 2509 were always slightly different to the others, though I don't recall exactly how. I think if you search through Gilbert's Peterborough thread Tony Wright comments on and explains it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 The 'black puff per shovelful' isn't really smoke, it is mostly fines in the fresh coal immediately entrained in the draught and carried uncombusted out of the firebox. Real smoke is sooty particulate from incomplete combustion which can be seen at the chimney top when the water vapour is condensing rapidly, tinting it slightly grey. That was the marker that the draught was right for the combustion rate; maximum combustion product temperature in the typical locomotive firebox is produced when there is slightly less oxygen than required for complete combustion of the fuel. With the loco working hard, the small proportion of soot produced is well dispersed such that you might think there is no smoke. But I cannot be the only one who has seen the grey haze after the water vapour has evaporated? There's a reason why children born in the steam age were told not to run their fingers along the iron railings around the station perimeter you know... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 I (hope) I didn't suggest that it was smoke, but what Rob's really interested in here is what it looks like. This isn't the video I first had in mind, but it does show the effect: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ez5og1iFU8 Edit - This is the one I had in mind. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 2750 Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 The handrails on 2509 were always slightly different to the others, though I don't recall exactly how. I think if you search through Gilbert's Peterborough thread Tony Wright comments on and explains it. 2509 as built had completely straight handrails to the cab. This was altered in to BR days so that it kinked downwards sharply. My 2509 will have the incorrect curve. To remove the handrail and then match the paint scheme would be very difficult. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmcg Posted June 30, 2014 Author Share Posted June 30, 2014 The handrails on 2509 were always slightly different to the others, though I don't recall exactly how. I think if you search through Gilbert's Peterborough thread Tony Wright comments on and explains it. Photos in the RCTS LNER Locomotives 2a Green book show the original 2509 boiler handrails at the cab end being straight, also as built it had recessed front draw-gear, no front number and short front buffers, and my photos are more approximately 1937 condition, handrail bent down at cab end, longer 'standard' front buffers, number, and so on...such as lubricators still encased, no beading on top edge of streamlined corridor tender. Ought to tidy that up, the curve of the carriage roof should be in line with top inward-sloping tender side. The first 4 silver A4s had variations a-plenty, certainly. Thanks 2750 if I was to depict 2509 as in her condition in those first two weeks of the Sliver Jubilee I would have to change a few details, equally the compromise wheel guards at the front and so on. Rob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmcg Posted June 30, 2014 Author Share Posted June 30, 2014 Many of the photographs flatter to deceive, catching the train on an easy stretch or even coasting with just the blower on. Among others, I have seen a superb unpublished photo of Quicksilver on the 'Silver Bullet' ascending Stoke against a strong wind; the copious exhaust thrown clear and nearly at right angles to the track. It's still a steam loco, albeit efficient for a simple type at 3lb of coal per dbhp hour: when asked to produce a lot of power - like going uphill rapidly with a lot of drag from wind with a head on component- then that coal has to be burned in due proportion, with the resultant exhaust. On the not much heavier Coronation set there were instances of the coal running out, adverse weather making extra demands by a wind induced drag increment, and more power than typical required to run the aircon. The nominal ten ton bunker capacity all burned through after 370 miles had to have made some smoke , somewhere en route... Indeed strong cross winds were the bane of many a steam train crew, I have experience of a NZ train with a 4-8-4 and the 'Limited' express from Auckland to Wellington being reduced to 15mph in a fierce gale, but that was possibly as much prudence as ability to keep steam up. Any cyclist knows about head winds, too, or runner, it is not often mentioned in literature relating to engine performance e g 1948 trials. Of course I take liberties in my photos, shed scenes with a cross-wind in particular. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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