New Century Bar and Pullman formations

[Thom]

I am  making a fictitious, yet somewhat believable, Pullman train of 7/8 coaches set in the late 40s to late 50s and want to have the New Century Bar in the formation. I will also be using the Observation Car. What might be some options on what coaches to use? I had been looking at the Devon Belle for a basic formation but that does not have a bar car. Also, as for roof colors, how important is it for them all to be exactly the same? 

[slilley]

Probably the best person to ask about all things Pullman is Antony Ford who has written extensively about Pullman cars.

 

I suggest you contact him via his publisher Kevin Robertson of Noodle Books.

 

Regards

 

Simon

[James Brodie]

Dear Sir, Info taken from  A.M.Ford's  Pullman profile No 1 The twelve wheel cars on page 59 gives the details about The New Century Bar.

Built 1917 as Third Class car No 5 and in 1946 rebuilt into 'Trianon' for use on the Golden Arrow then re named The New Century Bar for use on the Dover Ostend boat train then again in 1946 renamed Trianon and back in service on the Golden Arrow,

For model purposes a seven car train could be composed of:-

1 Third class brake parlour. 2 Third class kitchen. 3 Third class parlour 4*The New century bar* 5 First class parlour. 6 First class kitchen.

7 Observation car or brake first parlour.

There are four books upto now by Ford on Pullman Profiles which give paint details and lots of photos, some coach roofs were dark and some pristine white when ex works.

I have eight and twelve wheeled Pullmans in 0 gauge and could send you e mail photos if you were interested.

James Brodie.

[Thom]

Thank you, James, for your insight. I just now read what you wrote and your suggested formation will work great for me considering the coaches I already have. Also, it will be called the 'Tidmouth Belle' as it will be ging through the town of Great Waterton on the Isle  of Sodor.

 

Cheers

[Rshakes3]

I know this is an old post but I too are looking to go down the same path with a New Century car along with the No 14 Observation Car. I've acquired a 1st Class Kitchen, a 1st  class parlour, a 3rd Kitchen & a 3rd Brake/Parlour. Now these are wooden sided so there maybe a slight mismatch with the Bar Car. I`ve also referred to A.M Fords books & I noted the reference above refers to the 12 Wheel version of the car - so I gather there is a bit more history here than meets the eye at 1st glance.  But how did your rake work out?      

[Forester]

I know this is an old post but I too are looking to go down the same path with a New Century car along with the No 14 Observation Car. I've acquired a 1st Class Kitchen, a 1st  class parlour, a 3rd Kitchen & a 3rd Brake/Parlour. Now these are wooden sided so there maybe a slight mismatch with the Bar Car. I`ve also referred to A.M Fords books & I noted the reference above refers to the 12 Wheel version of the car - so I gather there is a bit more history here than meets the eye at 1st glance.  But how did your rake work out?      

 

Pullman Car rebuilding and renaming is a nightmare subject.

The earlier Pullmans were made of wood, were regularly in need of major rebuilding and easily converted into alternative layouts during the process.

 

The "New Century Bar" you have is the 8-wheel K-type First Class Car formerly named "Octavia" (the first Octavia) of 1924 which was sent to work overseas, then renamed "Diamond" on return to Britain (by which time there was a new K-Type "Octavia" of 1926). It was remodelled into a Bar Car briefly called "Trianon Bar" for the Golden Arrow first post-war run in 1946, then became the "New Century Bar" later in 1946, then the "Daffodil Bar" in 1955.

 

The 12-wheeler you mention was the 1917 Third Class Car No 5, remodelled into a Bar Car confusingly called "Trianon Bar" to replace the above 8-wheeler Trianon on the Golden Arrow (it was considered to have a more useful layout), then equally confusingly but briefly called the "New Century Bar" then back to "Trianon Bar" then "Buffet Car No 5".

 

With me so far?...... Not sure I am!

 

Your 8-wheeler New Century Bar is wood-sided upper half, I think?

It was fully flush-plated in aluminium when overhauled to become the "Daffodil Bar" in 1955. This was a time when many, but not all, wooden Pullman Cars were plated over, so it can accurately run with both plated and wooden-sided Pullmans.

 

In general it is perfectly reasonable to run plated-  and wooden- sided K-type Pullmans together from 1950s onwards.

The 1928 steel K-type Pullmans can of course run with either.

 

The purist might want to check which Pullmans were plated at the time their railway represents, and which were not.....

 

........but I have a headache and will leave it there!

Edited December 2, 2018 by Forester

[Rshakes3]

Hi Forester, thanks for the confirmation and I totally agree - I hope you are feeling better soon!

[Wickham Green]

Pullman Car rebuilding and renaming is a nightmare subject.

The earlier Pullmans were made of wood, were regularly in need of major rebuilding and easily converted into alternative layouts during the process.

 

The "New Century Bar" you have is the 8-wheel K-type First Class Car formerly named "Octavia" (the first Octavia) of 1924 which was sent to work overseas, then renamed "Diamond" on return to Britain (by which time there was a new K-Type "Octavia" of 1926). It was remodelled into a Bar Car briefly called "Trianon Bar" for the Golden Arrow first post-war run in 1946, then became the "New Century Bar" later in 1946, then the "Daffodil Bar" in 1955.

 

The 12-wheeler you mention was the 1917 Third Class Car No 5, remodelled into a Bar Car confusingly called "Trianon Bar" to replace the above 8-wheeler Trianon on the Golden Arrow (it was considered to have a more useful layout), then equally confusingly but briefly called the "New Century Bar" then back to "Trianon Bar" then "Buffet Car No 5".

 

With me so far?...... Not sure I am!

 

Your 8-wheeler New Century Bar is wood-sided upper half, I think?

It was fully flush-plated in aluminium when overhauled to become the "Daffodil Bar" in 1955. This was a time when many, but not all, wooden Pullman Cars were plated over, so it can accurately run with both plated and wooden-sided Pullmans.

 

In general it is perfectly reasonable to run plated-  and wooden- sided K-type Pullmans together from 1950s onwards.

The 1928 steel K-type Pullmans can of course run with either.

 

The purist might want to check which Pullmans were plated at the time their railway represents, and which were not.....

 

........but I have a headache and will leave it there!

Yes, the story of Trianon Bar etc.etc.etc. is enough to give anyone a headache ........ I'm working on a model of the 12-wheeled version for the post-war 'Arrer' - complete with pink interior !!! - based on Worsley Works etchings.

 

Roofs were generally white when first built - as with many coaches - but wouldn't have stayed that way for long and grey paint would have been applied during/post-war  ................ variations on a theme of grubby grey would have been usual in B.R. days ( maybe not fifty shades tho' ? )

[dibber25]

Pullman Car Co assembled individual trains to suit specific requirements, so if you are modelling a fictitious train, pretty much anything goes provided you use cars from the appropriate period. Roof colours varied widely and there was certainly no requirement for them to match. Check out the aerial views of the Churchill funeral train if you want an example. (CJL)

[phil-b259]

 

Roofs were generally white when first built - as with many coaches - but wouldn't have stayed that way for long and grey paint would have been applied during/post-war  ................ variations on a theme of grubby grey would have been usual in B.R. days ( maybe not fifty shades tho' ? )

 

Given the lack of air conditioning, painting the roof white (even if it did get dirty) would have been a very effective way to try and prevent the insides getting excessively hot in Summer - just as white painted pointwork doesn't stay white but dirty white is still better than rust / brown.

 

And before anyone chimes up that ordinary stock didn't have white roofs, firstly the whole point of Pullman cars was that they were supposed to be a cut above ordinary accommodation in terms of comfort (which would include matters like ventilation / temperature) and secondly, before WW2 (when highly visible roof colours were obviously not a good idea) the SR, KNER and GWR favoured an off white colour and the LMS went for a silver colour (again not that bad at reflecting light)

[Forester]

Perhaps someone with experience of restoring carriages will help out here, but....

 

My limited understanding is that the wooden roofs of the earlier classes of Pullman and the wooden K-class Pullmans were canvas-covered and the paint used was a special product which sealed the canvas for weatherproofing. Pullman Cars either used a white product or were given a finishing coat or three of white paint.

 

With the introduction of steel K-class Pullmans of 1928 with riveted steel roofs, there was no need for canvas and pictures of them new show bare steel roofs painted silver.

 

Hornby therefore seems to have adopted a code of giving their models of steel Pullmans silver roofs, their wooden Pullmans in early crest days white roofs and Pullmans in late crest days grey roofs.

 

Looks reasonable to me.

[Wickham Green]

Perhaps someone with experience of restoring carriages will help out here, but....

 

My limited understanding is that the wooden roofs of the earlier classes of Pullman and the wooden K-class Pullmans were canvas-covered and the paint used was a special product which sealed the canvas for weatherproofing. Pullman Cars either used a white product or were given a finishing coat or three of white paint.

 

With the introduction of steel K-class Pullmans of 1928 with riveted steel roofs, there was no need for canvas and pictures of them new show bare steel roofs painted silver.

 

Hornby therefore seems to have adopted a code of giving their models of steel Pullmans silver roofs, their wooden Pullmans in early crest days white roofs and Pullmans in late crest days grey roofs.

 

Looks reasonable to me.

Canvas roof coverings were, indeed given a coating of a special sealing product called white lead - then finished with several top coats of white lead ............. the proportions of lead, boiled linseed oil and other - probably toxic and totally illegal nowadays - ingredients would have varied between the first ( principally sealing ) and final ( largely cosmetic ) coats ...... but the white leads soon turned grey anyway and the pretence of whiteness was lost.

 

Steel roofs would have been anything but 'bare' metal and the silver-grey would probably have overlain a few coats of RED lead ! ( Apart from London UndergrounD stock, I believe only one carriage did actually run in these islands with an unpainted roof - the little-known 'Silver Princess : https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=9NHZm3um4WEC&pg=PA81&lpg=PA81&dq=budd+silver+princess&source=bl&ots=QbL3TI8jeW&sig=9ErCpQOrZX3obA4jMmhHM5v1o7A&hl=en&sa=X&ei=oiURU6_XE4rMhAff2YCYAw#v=onepage&q=budd%20silver%20princess&f=false ) 

[Hilux5972]

Does anyone have a link to a good match for the Pullman roof cream/white please? I’m going to be modelling the British Pullman so need to repaint a few rooves. Cheers

[Ken.W]

Given the lack of air conditioning, painting the roof white (even if it did get dirty) would have been a very effective way to try and prevent the insides getting excessively hot in Summer -

 

Hmm, given the lack of effective air-conditioning, they tried that on Class 91 cabs too

[JDW]

 

Steel roofs would have been anything but 'bare' metal and the silver-grey would probably have overlain a few coats of RED lead ! ( Apart from London UndergrounD stock, I believe only one carriage did actually run in these islands with an unpainted roof - the little-known 'Silver Princess : https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=9NHZm3um4WEC&pg=PA81&lpg=PA81&dq=budd+silver+princess&source=bl&ots=QbL3TI8jeW&sig=9ErCpQOrZX3obA4jMmhHM5v1o7A&hl=en&sa=X&ei=oiURU6_XE4rMhAff2YCYAw#v=onepage&q=budd%20silver%20princess&f=false ) 

 

Interesting link, thanks for posting!