Agenoria WR 1366 Pannier for Pencarrow Bridge

[Simond]

Ah, yes, been there.

 

If you use 10 BA bolts glued in the wheels, and tap the Slaters bushes to suit (including the extra pair you have) you can secure the con rods with the extra pair. This will set the con rods outboard by about 0.5mm, the thickness of the flange. You can then shorten the bolts to the ends of the bushes.

 

You'll need to shorten the bushes to stop the rods flapping about. You'll also need washers behind the bushes to stop the rods catching on the wheel boss - one or two 10BA washers should suffice, but beware the washers with a slightly oversize hole as the bush may go into it causing inexplicable and unexpected tight spots.

 

The area where I suspect you will find issues is behind the cross heads, where clearances will be mighty tight.

 

Shout up if this isn't clear!

Simon

[Simond]

Chris

 

Just seen your photo with the 12BA nuts sunk in the backs of the wheels. I guess the "two bushes on the same pin" will still work for the con rods.

 

Simon

[2ManySpams]

The area where I suspect you will find issues is behind the cross heads, where clearances will be mighty tight.

 

 

 

I can see that one coming already - it's gone too well so far!!

[chaz]

The goal for tonight was to get the motor in and turning.

 

First task was to file a flat on the axle to take the grub screw. I noticed on his thread that Chaz did this reasonably deep so I followed suit.

IMAG1266.jpg

 

 

Why file a flat on the axle? Well at first sight it seems to help the grub screw to lock in, but more importantly when you tighten the grub screw it will raise a burr on the axle which will make it very difficult to remove the gear wheel should you need to. If the burr is on the flat then there is no problem.

 

Good to see the build progressing so well. Now you have a rolling chassis you may feel the worst is over......but be warned, with some of the loco kits that I have built the real challenges have come with putting together what goes above the footplate......so take your time.

 

Chaz

[Guest Isambarduk]

" DLOS (and others) of this parish and the GOG websites did a rather more technical / professional job of drilling a pair of holes in the flanges, and making a peg spanner to suit."

For anybody who's interested, there's a photograph and a brief explanation here: www.davidlosmith.co.uk/Model-Parts.htm#TopHatCrankpinBushes

David
aka DLOS

[N15class]

You are getting on well with this loco. As you will see from all the comments there are a million ways to do each job. The best is read waht is said then adapt anything that you think is useful into your own method.

[81A Oldoak]

Chris,

What is your plan for current collection?

 

Chris

[84B Oxley]

Chris

 

If you need more crankpin bushes, Slaters do them as separate items. JPL also do them but in steel and ready tapped. Clearance behind the crossheads wasn't a problem on 1367, you just need to make sure that you have as little play as possible on the leading crankpins and cut off the screws as close as possible to the securing nuts/ bushes. As for current collection, I used the Agenoria method of wire scrapers; material and instructions are even provided in the kit. Easier to make and fit them before the brake crossbeams. Interesting that these little locos had no brake shoes on the leading wheels. And not a lot of people know that-unless they've built a model of one!

Jeff

[2ManySpams]

Chris,

What is your plan for current collection?

 

Chris

At the moment my plan was to have current collection...but no real thoughts beyond that.

 

Plunger pick-ups seem to be a bit like marmite for folk and an added complication to me. I'm probably going for the tried and tested wiper type as per the destructions. Would be nice to get these in early to see the locos running on it's own but perhaps I'm getting ahead of myself?

[2ManySpams]

Chris

 

If you need more crankpin bushes, Slaters do them as separate items. JPL also do them but in steel and ready tapped. Clearance behind the crossheads wasn't a problem on 1367, you just need to make sure that you have as little play as possible on the leading crankpins and cut off the screws as close as possible to the securing nuts/ bushes. As for current collection, I used the Agenoria method of wire scrapers; material and instructions are even provided in the kit. Easier to make and fit them before the brake crossbeams. Interesting that these little locos had no brake shoes on the leading wheels. And not a lot of people know that-unless they've built a model of one!

Jeff

I put an order in last night with Slaters for a variety of spare bushes, pins and bearings. I was getting nervous about only jut the right number of parts as they have a habit of pinging off into the wide blue yonder. Added an Allen key while I was at it too and this got me over the minimum order.

 

Yes interesting about not having front brakes although I doubt they travelled that quickly!

[Guest Isambarduk]

"Plunger pick-ups seem to be a bit like marmite for folk ..."
 
Now I confess that I am a Marmite person and I use plunger pick-ups but not of the 'conventional' Slater's kind (ie an independent pickup for each wheel) but more like the Finescale Brass arrangement from John Riley with only one spring, but it is ‘open-frame’. I am sure that I did not invent it but, later, the first commercial example that I saw appeared on the Sevenscal L&Y ‘Pug’.
 

My apologies for using this photograph of the underside of my GWR Castle again but it is the only one that I have that illustrates the device (in front of the red vacuum cylinder) on a loco. However, Here is an early example on the rear wheels of a GWR 3500 gallon tender.
 

 
 
 
If anybody is really interested, I can post here the rough dimensioned sketch from my model engineer's notebook - just let me know.

 

David

[2ManySpams]

You are getting on well with this loco. As you will see from all the comments there are a million ways to do each job. The best is read waht is said then adapt anything that you think is useful into your own method.

I must admit that I'm quietly pleased with progress so far and could have been found rolling the chassis up and down a length of PECO track for a few minutes this morning! Holding an end of track in each hand an raising and lowering the ends gives you a very satisfying view of the chassis running to and fro on its own. Good to watch the beams twitch slightly if the track is twisted. I think I saw SWIMBO pass by shaking her head...

 

Very difficult knowing what the most appropriate / correct method is though and I'm just muddling on through. I suspect there's the odd decision that will need revisiting when it becomes apparent later in the build just why certain advice was offered but that's all part of the learning curve.

[2ManySpams]

"Plunger pick-ups seem to be a bit like marmite for folk ..."

 

Now I confess that I am a Marmite person and I use plunger pick-ups but not of the 'conventional' Slater's kind (ie an independent pickup for each wheel) but more like the Finescale Brass arrangement from John Riley with only one spring, but it is ‘open-frame’. I am sure that I did not invent it but, later, the first commercial example that I saw appeared on the Sevenscal L&Y ‘Pug’.

 

 

My apologies for using this photograph of the underside of my GWR Castle again but it is the only one that I have that illustrates the device (in front of the red vacuum cylinder) on a loco. However, Here is an early example on the rear wheels of a GWR 3500 gallon tender.

 

 

 

 

If anybody is really interested, I can post here the rough dimensioned sketch from my model engineer's notebook - just let me know.

 

David

I presume there's some sort of electrical isolation in that spring arrangement!

[Guest Isambarduk]

"I presume there's some sort of electrical isolation in that spring arrangement!"
 
Yes, indeed!  Sorry, perhaps it would have helped if I had said that all the bushes (the 'black bits') are polystyrene, machined from black sprue from plastic kits.  The steel spring you can see and the plungers themselves are brass and just visible; more difficult to see are the 'solder tags' that the plungers are screwed into because they are also painted black (along with the soldered joints).
 
Even though nobody's asked for it, here is the sketch that I offered earlier which should make it clearer (or may be not!).  It probably does confirm though that I cannot but help myself from doing things the long way!  But I find it satisfying, rewarding and fun :-)

Looking at the ‘scrap view’ at the bottom left, a plastic top hat bush (part 2, shown top right) is retained in the frame by a plastic collar (part 5, shown bottom right); solvent is used to unite the two parts.

A brass solder tag (part 3, shown centre left) is screwed onto a brass plunger (part 1, shown top left) and is followed by a second top hat bush (part 4, shown centre right) that is a clearance fit only on the exposed threaded end of the plunger.

The plunger of the plunger/tag/bush assembly passes through the first top hat bush (part 2) in the frames. A low rate spring passes over, and acts upon, the second top hat bush (part 4) and a similar top hat bush of the opposing pickup assembly on the opposite frame.

This may sound complicated but I find them very easy to make. Because the spring is quite long and low rate it is also easy to make (from a longer spring) as its length is not particularly critical for its correct function, unlike ‘conventional’ plunger pickups.

For the plastic bushes, I use polystyrene but, to prevent melting accidents, I do solder the wires to the solder tags before I insert the plungers in the frames and fit the smaller top hat bushes (part 4).

I hope this explains things adequately.

David

[Simond]

David

 

Thanks for this - I suspect that the other 3 "likes" in response to your original question were intended as votes for "please show us", as was mine!

 

I can certainly see the advantage of the long, low rate springs, and of the plungers being tucked up inside the frames - much less vulnerable than scratchers.

 

You've got me thinking...

 

Kind regards

Simon

[2ManySpams]

Noting the the Slaters wheels were already starting to rust after only a few days out of the packet I've spent tonight cleaning them up and applying the gun blue. Whilst I was at it I also cleaned up my set of tapered broaches and a few other tools succumbed to attack by flux.

 

Any tips to stop rust on Slaters wheels?

[DLT]

I love Marmite, but I hate plunger pickups!  Once they are in they're in; you cant remove them, you can't adjust them.  On various occasions I've had locos come to me that won't run; one of the first jobs is to rip out the seized plungers that were preventing the wheels from rotating, and replace them with nickel-silver wipers.  The method David describes gets round some of the problems though.

Its wipers every time for me, unless its physically impossible, then I opt for Backscratchers in some form.

Cheers, Dave

[Kev_Lewis]

Great start, Chris.

 

You may also want to blacken the axles too.

[2ManySpams]

Great start, Chris.

 

You may also want to blacken the axles too.

Yes, I think I do, darn it. Back to the kitchen sink with me!

[2ManySpams]

I use Carr's Electrofix over the blackened steel. Dry off the tyres with a soft, clean cloth then apply with a cotton bud. Seems to work for me and I live in a damp part of the country!

 

Pickups, hmmm. Well I have plungers of various types including 4mm scale and home made ones. I also have back scratchers. If by wipers, DLT means those that wipe the tread of the tyres, then that is the type I did not get on with! I found they picked up too much dirt, so converted them to back scratchers. I had problems with Slaters plungers jamming up on my O2, which took some sorting. On my next build, an Agenoria 0-6-2T, I will use back scratchers or try Chaz's plungers.

 

Thanks Paul - Electrofix added to the shopping list. 

Having had a look at some of the wheelsets on my wagons it looks like I'll need something to remove rust too. 

 

I presume that your next project is one of these then. Depending on how this build goes, I quite fancy its smaller brother at some point.

 

Think I'll start with back scratchers and see how well they work - there's always the option to revise in the future.

[Guest Isambarduk]

"I hate plunger pickups! Once they are in they're in; you cant remove them, you can't adjust them."  DLT

Just not so!

 

The type that I described and illustrated above may be easily removed and easily adjusted.  That is why I 'developed' them, although I claim no originality as others, such as Finescal and San Cheng Models (as in Finescale Brass, Tower Models and Bachmann) have used them.

 

David

[2ManySpams]

There's definately a list of model railway marmite subjects... My top ten likely to cause discussion are: 

 

1. steam vs diesel / electric

2. DC vs DCC

3. 00 vs EM vs P4

4. scratcher/wiper vs plunger

5. airbrush vs paint brush

6. kit vs RTR (track, stock & buildings)

7. backscene vs no backscene

8. DCC sound (and volume thereof) vs no sound 

9. low layout height vs high

10. 'trainset' vs absolute prototype accuracy

11. Weathered stock vs pristeen 

 

(ok so there's now 11 but i'm invoking a modified rule 1 - it's my thread ;-p )

[2ManySpams]

Whilst waiting for the bearing delivery that will enable me to do the gearbox and motor, I think I'll have a crack at the cylinder assemblies. More moving parts - should be fun!

[DLT]

If by wipers, DLT means those that wipe the tread of the tyres, then that is the type I did not get on with! I found they picked up too much dirt,

No, no, definitely not on the treads, as you say, they collect the dirt.  Always rubbing on the backs of the wheels or the edge of the flange.

 

 

The type that I described and illustrated above may be easily removed and easily adjusted. 

Quite so, your method gets round those problems, as I said.

I was referring to the standard plunger method which are fitted from outside the frames, and once in are completely inaccessible without removing the wheels!

And of course we are talking different scales; my experience is in 4mm scale, and 7mm narrow gauge.  In 0-Gauge the friction problems are less of an issue.

 

Cheers,

Dave.

Edited August 2, 2014 by DLT

[Stubby47]

There's definately a list of model railway marmite subjects... My top ten likely to cause discussion are: 

 

1. steam vs diesel / electric

2. DC vs DCC

3. 00 vs EM vs P4

4. scratcher/wiper vs plunger

5. airbrush vs paint brush

6. kit vs RTR (track, stock & buildings)

7. backscene vs no backscene

8. DCC sound (and volume thereof) vs no sound 

9. low layout height vs high

10. 'trainset' vs absolute prototype accuracy

11. Weathered stock vs pristeen 

 

(ok so there's now 11 but i'm invoking a modified rule 1 - it's my thread ;-p )

12. O.G.