Diffrence between working with brass or nickle sliver

[Londontram]

One of my conversion projects I've got on the go at the moment a saddle tank will need a new cab and bunker with some quite distinct curves and was thinking that metal might be a better medium than plasticard but was wondering what is the best metal to use brass or nickle silver the latter a new medium to me. The question is what are the pros and cons of each material ie. cutting, shaping, holding its end shape and ability to take solder. Also can brass and nickle silver be soldered together with out major problems. Any advice would be welcome, thanks Steve

[Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71]

Hi Steve,

 

Have a chat with Derek at Eileen's Emporium...he stocks both and will advise impartially. I myself prefer nickel silver for fine work but both metals cut and solder well.

 

Dave

[peter220950]

I haven't noticed any difference in cutting or drilling either metal, but nickle silver seems to me to solder better, and I think, if I remember correctly, it rolls and bends better. Given a choice I would always go for nickle silver because of the easier soldering.

 

It's also worth considering the thickness you use, it's often the case that you can over-estimate the thickness you need and cause yourself more work if the metal is too thick. A saddle tank, with ends soldered in the bottom tucked under the tank, is remarkable strong, so you don't need huge slabs of metal, I'm away from home at the moment, so can't measure my Peckett tank, but that's in O gauge anyway, you don't say what scale you are working in? I'm sure others can point you in the right direction on thickness.

[Londontram]

Its in 00 and I have a saddle tank, smoke box, splashers, sandboxes and other parts already in white metal its the cab and bunker and posable the running plate I'll need

[Londontram]

Nickle silver has a lower thermal conductivity, so does not drain the heat away from the iron so quickly. I prefer NS because of this. It is not 'greasy' like brass, so I find it cleaner to work with. Paint adheres better to NS. Brass is used is because it is cheaper than NS.

I had heard this about NS and just wanted it confirmed so it looks like I'll go for the NS as my local model shop sell both and the small amount I need shouldn't be to prohibitive cost wise

[Nicktoix]

Brass is a great deal easier to bend and form curves.

Nickel silver is easier to solder.

Take your pick but try to avoid annealing.

Assuming you are working in 4mm use no thicker than 10 or 12 thou if you are shaping.

Nick

[Londontram]

Thanks everyone I think you've sold me the NS idea especially as it seems its going to be easier to solder as have had mixed results with brass in the past. This is the cab and bunker I would like to recreate as you can see not too complex but with the one piece cab sides and roof and the curve on the turn of the bunker I think to do it justice metal and not plasticard is the way to go. I do have most of the other components in white metal but the quality of the running plate is poor so might have a go at re-doing that in NS as well. Thanks again for the advice.

    Picture shows a Caledonian 323 class 0-6-0 used for shunting and short trip working with goods only from about 1886 to 1925  I used this photo as it shows the cab and bunker angles well but I'll be modeling it as it would have looked post WW1 when fitted with standard 15 spoke wheels and not the early 9 "T" pattern spoke wheels

[Kenton]

My vote is with brass every time.

 

N-S has its uses though - it is cleaner to solder (but brass is easier to clean - if that makes sense) this is down to N-S does not tarnish so easily. It also hides a multitude of sinful wasted solder (silver on silver - harder to spot the difference)

 

N-S is much harder to bend and hence its preference for frames and anything straight/flat but brass anneals very well making it softer to bend for boilers etc. Sometimes too soft that it can be easily dented. N-S is much harder to roll.

 

N-S seems to be less forgiving on drill bits - lubricate a must!

 

I have also noted that kits with tabs and slots seem to have them better defined than with brass. This may be that N-S has a small cusp due to the etch process.

 

brass looks shiny and "golden"

[Nicktoix]

Bunker & cab sides/roof brass.

Footplate nickel

Nick

[N15class]

My vote is with brass every time.

 

N-S has its uses though - it is cleaner to solder (but brass is easier to clean - if that makes sense) this is down to N-S does not tarnish so easily. It also hides a multitude of sinful wasted solder (silver on silver - harder to spot the difference)

 

N-S is much harder to bend and hence its preference for frames and anything straight/flat but brass anneals very well making it softer to bend for boilers etc. Sometimes too soft that it can be easily dented. N-S is much harder to roll.

 

N-S seems to be less forgiving on drill bits - lubricate a must!

 

I have also noted that kits with tabs and slots seem to have them better defined than with brass. This may be that N-S has a small cusp due to the etch process.

 

brass looks shiny and "golden"

If you use half hard NS it is no worse than brass, and that even varies depending on the grade. As for clean the solder is easy enough to see, and paint does not stick to nice shiny brass. It is hard enough to get it stick to abraded brass.

 

Londontram, I would use half hard NS as it is the best of the two, kits tend to be i brass because it is cheaper. Ns as said before solders, paints, etc far better than brass. If the folds etc are tight use a thinner sheet, as NS is harder than brass it will have the same strength.

[macgeordie]

Bunker & cab sides/roof brass.

Footplate nickel

Nick

I agree with Nick on this one, Brass is much easier to form and a saddle tank is not going to be easy to make. Nickel Silver is lovely to work with but is harder to bend or form even if you use thinner material. Brass is cheaper but unless you are planning to produce a kit for this model then the difference in cost for the amount you would need is irrelevant. Good luck with your model, I'm looking forward to seeing your progress with it.

 

Ian

[Adrian]

Nickel Silver is lovely to work with but is harder to bend or form even if you use thinner material. 

 

I would beg to differ on this because it depends on what grade of nickel-silver you get. As mentioned earlier there are different grades of nickel-silver, if you get hard N-S then it will be harder but you can get half hard N-S which IMHO is easier to work than brass. Also brass tends to work harden quicker than N-S so N-S is more forgiving if you need to adjust and tweak any bends that need to be adjusted to fit.

[Kenton]

Of course you can always anneal either to make them softer to work with.

[ian@stenochs]

Hi London tram.

Nickel Silver all the time. Soldering is so much easier, it cuts and forms just as easily as brass, takes paint better and looks more steel like than brass. I havent built a Jubilee pug but have made locos with round cabs and saddletanks. I mostly use 10 thou on bodywork with thicker if I want to add weight and sometimes 5 or 7 thou for detailing and I work in 7mm scale.

It is only very seldomly that I have had to anneal ns and that if very tight bends are needed. The curved top on Caley tanks I do witbout any heat, just a pair of bending bars. Get a hold of some NS and find out for youself.

Happy modelling.

Ian.

[edward66]

Pedants' corner............the metal is nickel, not nickle, another element often spelled wrongly is fluorine e.g. fluorescent which is not spelled flourescent.

 

Sorry folks, I'm a chemist you see! 

 

Edward

[Londontram]

Hi London tram.

Nickel Silver all the time. Soldering is so much easier, it cuts and forms just as easily as brass, takes paint better and looks more steel like than brass. I havent built a Jubilee pug but have made locos with round cabs and saddletanks. I mostly use 10 thou on bodywork with thicker if I want to add weight and sometimes 5 or 7 thou for detailing and I work in 7mm scale.

It is only very seldomly that I have had to anneal ns and that if very tight bends are needed. The curved top on Caley tanks I do witbout any heat, just a pair of bending bars. Get a hold of some NS and find out for youself.

Happy modelling.

Ian.

Thanks Ian that's great advice and you've defiantly sold me on the idea of nickle silver and well done for knowing it's a Jubilee pug, very few other than die hard Caledonian fans know what they are being somewhat allusive picture wise in most of the general Caledonian loco books often getting the most briefest of mentions most thinking the 782 class as being the standard 0-6-0 tank loco (which it was but which was a direct development of these) but I think there a charming little Victorian loco and luckily I have a set of drawings and about 8 or 9 good all angle photo;s of both wheel types just a pity no one makes the Drummond "T" pattern wheels in 00 though one chap said he shaved the spokes on a set of LNWR "H" spoke wheels to get the right effect but as I said I'll play chicken and go for the later McIntosh standard wheels. Thanks again Steve 

[ian@stenochs]

Thanks Ian that's great advice and you've defiantly sold me on the idea of nickle silver and well done for knowing it's a Jubilee pug, very few other than die hard Caledonian fans know what they are.

 

Hi Londontram.

 

Sorry but I'm a Glasgow & South Western fan!! first and foremost. I have a bit of interest in the Caley though as there were few major places on the Sou West that the CR did not also serve.

 

I assume from what you say about wheels for the Jubilee pug you are in 4mm scale. Slaters list the proper tee section wheels in 7mm scale if you fancy moving up a size.

 

Back to metal! I have been buying my NS from Metalsmiths. They supply a grade ideal for our use and it comes as a flat sheet which was not always the case with that I got from Eileens emporium. They also have a range of thicker sections and wires.

 

Happy modelling.

Ian.

[macgeordie]

I have also noted that kits with tabs and slots seem to have them better defined than with brass. This may be that N-S has a small cusp due to the etch process.

 

 

Thought I'd resurrect this thread as I was curious as to how the build had progressed and an issue I had recently, reminded me of Kentons message (shortened) above.

 

I normally get my etches made in 12 thou brass and have always drawn the slots for 'slot and tab' components at 0.36mm which is the dimension recommended by the etchers. However my current project, the BR Transformer MA wagon needed a lot of rigidity built into it so I decided to use 12 thou Nickel Silver instead. The Etching company website quotes the same tolerances for NS as for Brass so I did everything at 0.36mm as usual, but found when I came to build it, nothing fitted properly and I had to use a 0.35mm drill in a pin chuck to widen out all the slots which was a pain.

 

I modified the drawings (I had to anyway as there are always mistakes on the first test build no matter how careful you are) and made all the slots wider, mostly around 0.38mm but some I made at 0.4mm where a bit of slop wasn't a problem as the tabs were passing through a multiple of layers. When I received the second test etch only the slots at 0.4mm allowed the tabs to fit without any problems. The ones at 0.38mm still needed opening slightly although this could be done by pushing a scalpel blade into the slot to clear the cusp material, the blade is 0.38mm thick so is ideal. 

 

The conclusion seems to be exactly as Kenton has said, the etching process does seem to produce a more pronounced cusp with NS over brass even though the Etching company quote the same tolerances. It is only an issue with slots as the cusp is easily filed off anything else once it is removed from the main fret.

 

Ian

[Quarryscapes]

Thought I'd resurrect this thread as I was curious as to how the build had progressed and an issue I had recently, reminded me of Kentons message (shortened) above.

 

I normally get my etches made in 12 thou brass and have always drawn the slots for 'slot and tab' components at 0.36mm which is the dimension recommended by the etchers. However my current project, the BR Transformer MA wagon needed a lot of rigidity built into it so I decided to use 12 thou Nickel Silver instead. The Etching company website quotes the same tolerances for NS as for Brass so I did everything at 0.36mm as usual, but found when I came to build it, nothing fitted properly and I had to use a 0.35mm drill in a pin chuck to widen out all the slots which was a pain.

 

I modified the drawings (I had to anyway as there are always mistakes on the first test build no matter how careful you are) and made all the slots wider, mostly around 0.38mm but some I made at 0.4mm where a bit of slop wasn't a problem as the tabs were passing through a multiple of layers. When I received the second test etch only the slots at 0.4mm allowed the tabs to fit without any problems. The ones at 0.38mm still needed opening slightly although this could be done by pushing a scalpel blade into the slot to clear the cusp material, the blade is 0.38mm thick so is ideal. 

 

The conclusion seems to be exactly as Kenton has said, the etching process does seem to produce a more pronounced cusp with NS over brass even though the Etching company quote the same tolerances. It is only an issue with slots as the cusp is easily filed off anything else once it is removed from the main fret.

 

Ian

 

Ian there is always going to be variation in the cusping, it's a combination of how old and well used the etchant is and the time the material is sat in it, add to that slight errors in getting the front and back tools aligned and you soon see there's a lot of margin for error, regardless of the material.

 

Nickel Silver IS brass, just a different grade. FWIW I prefer it because it is a bid harder and makes for more rigidity against the same thickness of brass. 0.25mm is fine for wagon underframes in N/S but not in Brass where it just bends and distorts too readily. I've also found it better to punch rivets with as the sheet does not buckle and bow around the rivet as much as brass, leaving a lot less straightening to do afterwards, particularly important for long thin strapping pieces. 

 

I really wish you could get proper flat sheets from PPD though, half etched bits curl up once removed from the fret! 

[macgeordie]

It's hardly fair to say Nickel silver is Brass, O.K. they are both alloys using copper as the main ingredient as well as Zinc but the addition of Nickel changes the characteristics significantly.

 

My comments above reflect that of Kenton who has experienced the same issue and if there is no difference, how does that answer the point that I haven't had a problem like this with brass? I've only been creating my own etches for about ten years so I don't claim to be an expert, I'm only reporting that which I have found by experience.

 

The problem of large half etched overlays not being flat doesn't seem to be a problem associated only with PPD. If you read some of Ian Rice's missives covering etched loco building and the like, it seems to be an issue with many etching companies.

 

Ian

[ozzyo]

It's hardly fair to say Nickel silver is Brass, O.K. they are both alloys using copper as the main ingredient as well as Zinc but the addition of Nickel changes the characteristics significantly.

 

My comments above reflect that of Kenton who has experienced the same issue and if there is no difference, how does that answer the point that I haven't had a problem like this with brass? I've only been creating my own etches for about ten years so I don't claim to be an expert, I'm only reporting that which I have found by experience.

 

The problem of large half etched overlays not being flat doesn't seem to be a problem associated only with PPD. If you read some of Ian Rice's missives covering etched loco building and the like, it seems to be an issue with many etching companies.

 

Ian

 

I have it in my head the the curving of half etched sheet is due to how the sheet is manufactured. This is normally by rolling, during this process the sheet is rolled up, then when it is being cut in to sheets it is passed through rollers to straighten it out. This will leave a memory in the metal from when it was roiled up. 

To stop the half etched sheets from taking on a curve you could try getting 2 or 3 thou etched off both sides of the sheet and then getting all of the etched work done on that sheet. Taking the outer skin of the sheet should then release any stresses that are near to the surface of the sheet.

 

These are only my thoughts and could be wrong. I'm basing these thought on when I had to mill roiled aluminium, when you cut the skin off one side the metal would bend so you had to cut the skin off the other side and edges before you could get it to be any thing like flat.  

 

OzzyO.     

[Michael Edge]

We get the same problem with curving of large areas of half etch in n/s (from PhotoEtch), it is variable though, some sheets worse than others and last order was almost flat. This is never a problem with brass.

[Kenton]

 

it is variable though, some sheets worse than others and last order was almost flat. This is never a problem with brass.

Would that be simply down to how far down the roll the sheet is taken. A more pronounced "memory" on sheets from the centre of the roll? Could it be that brass does not exhibit such a "memory" effect, a different material?