GreenBoy Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 Hi 1st - sorry if this this is in the wrong forum or if it has been answered before. I am planning a layout - my first since I was a child (decades ago) and am trying to work out how much space i need for sidings, fiddle yards etc, and am having issues finding dimensions of RTR engines and stock to work out how much space i need - lengths of run arounds etc. I have been on the Bachmann site, and there is no information here. Hornby is pretty much the same. Does any one know if this information is available. or do i need to resort to looking up the prototype and then doing the maths and adding 20mm to allow for the couplers? Thanks, and sorry for such a newbie questions. GreenBoy PS - I will purchase my rolling stock to suit my layout - hence wanting to know upfront as opossed to just measuring the stock i have already! Proposed layout to be early diesel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 3rd Rail Exile Posted July 19, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 19, 2014 Certain of the retailers with websites (Hattons for example, www.ehattons.com) show pictures of most items next to a ruler - would this give you a good enough idea or do you need a greater degree of precision? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plarailfan Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 Hi and welcome to the forum. You don't say how much space you have available for a layout, but to operate a OO gauge class 20 / 25 / 50, or "Peak" Diesel, in a realistic setting, with three, passenger / bogie coaches, would require approx 4ft, A run round loop for this train would need to be around 8ft long, on the longest side, as you would need a headshunt to release the locomotive. Some of the parcel vans are quite short, at around 6" so a lot depends on the stock you are planning to use. Most models these days are intended for use on second radius curved tracks, rather than first radius that you could use in the past and the Peco, or similar short points "Setrack" etc, do not look very realistic when large models are running through them, also, derailments can occur, so you are better using the larger radius points. Hope this helps. There are many experienced modellers on here and no doubt some more advice will follow shortly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenBoy Posted July 19, 2014 Author Share Posted July 19, 2014 plarailfan and 3rd rail exile - thank you for your comments To add to my original post: I am going to be using a spare bedroom, which i am also going to have to use as a home office so no possibility of a layout all round the room. This leaves me with two options - an L(ish) shaped layout which is about 2m along one leg and 1.5m along the other. The other option is a U shaped layout with a 3.7m run with the 'legs' being about 1.5m each.... but has problems being directly under the window and running above a radiator. Therefore i need to plan carefully to see what i can do. I am looking for more of a goods shunting type of layout, but a branch line terminus also appeals for 2 car DMU's etc. 3rd Rail - Hattons looks good for getting the approx size, which is good enough for my purpose, but i am surprised that the manufacturers dont tell you all these facts as part of their attempt to sell you them.... Any comments gratefully recieved, and thanks again to those who have already commented. GB Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Ray H Posted July 19, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 19, 2014 As a very rough rule of thumb I worked on about 3.5 inches for a 4 wheel wagon - brake vans 4 inches, 9.5 inches for earlier generation bogie coaches and the smaller tender engines, 10.5 inches for Mk 1s and the larger diesels. Luckily I can get 3 (pre Mk 1) coaches and a (smaller)tender engine in a little over 38 inches. The three coaches were almost 29 inches so I added a couple of inches to that at each end for (fouling point) clearance, then add a point (templates/dimensions from the manufacturer) and a further 10 inches (for the loco to clear the point to enable it to run round). Add a couple of inches for the buffer stops as well. Hope that helps. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
standardblue Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 As a very rough rule of thumb I worked on about 3.5 inches for a 4 wheel wagon - brake vans 4 inches, 9.5 inches for earlier generation bogie coaches and the smaller tender engines, 10.5 inches for Mk 1s and the larger diesels. Luckily I can get 3 (pre Mk 1) coaches and a (smaller)tender engine in a little over 38 inches. The three coaches were almost 29 inches so I added a couple of inches to that at each end for (fouling point) clearance, then add a point (templates/dimensions from the manufacturer) and a further 10 inches (for the loco to clear the point to enable it to run round). Add a couple of inches for the buffer stops as well. Hope that helps. If I were you, I would work to some rough rules of thumb, as Ray H suggests. If you design to suit exactly a particular item of rolling stock, say the headshunt for a runround loop suiting an exact loco precisely, you may come a cropper in the future when you buy a new, longer loco you want to run around! Another rule of thumb I would add is 'always add a couple of extra inches, just for luck' - I've had several sidings, loops, etc all 1 inch too short! This is just from my experience - when space was tight, I built a headshunt to exactly suit my Lima 50 and Mk1s & Mk2s. Luckily, I never could afford the Mainline Peak or full length Hornby Mk3s, but if I had done, I would probably have had to shunt release as the loop would have been too tight. As it was, I had to lift the rear of the B1's tender to switch the loop point... Also, it's worth noting that a lot of freight wagons were built on standard-length underframes (eg box vans, 3/5/7-plank wagons, etc) , which makes siding lengths easier to work out. Hope this helps! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenBoy Posted July 20, 2014 Author Share Posted July 20, 2014 Ray H - thanks this is very helpful. StandardBlue - I agree - I am not looking for mm perfect, as you say you will run into all sorts of problems if you do this. I am just surprised that the manufacturers are not bombarding their customers with this information length, height, width, minimum radius bend, overhangs (determine the space between tracks if not standard) etc, which is surely what model makers and rivet counters want - details! - oh and the reason for wanting to know length - one of my layout ideas is track heavy -- to be honest i went overboard and crammed in way too much, and ended up with a couple of sidings which were just about long enough to leave a horse box.... and nothing else. This layout idea has been scrapped and i am now trying to be 'sensible' - as if! Thanks for all the comments. GB Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plarailfan Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 but has problems being directly under the window and running above a radiator. Yes, the scenery tends to fade very quickly and the baseboards don't always stay flat / level above a radiator, so definitely to be avoided, if at all possible. I have no end of sympathy for you, as I have been in a similar situation on occasions. The problem is that you can soon end up having to "make do" with a small, rather cramped layout in order to stay clear of hazards such as these. I think in this instance, the L - shape layout might be a better option for you, rather than the U - shape, as a 3.5 metre long, end to end layout, could still provide many interesting movements and possibly a small station could be included, to generate some extra traffic and shunting movements ? Some of the "Peco" track planning books are useful for ideas, also, the American, produced Kalmbach, magazine books are brilliant for providing inspiration, as they are bursting with ideas for lineside industry and other features that could equally be applied to UK layouts. (the Kalmbach publications can sometimes be found on club secondhand stalls at model rail exhibitions. My personal favourite is the N gauge "Clinchfield" book, as the scenery looks pretty much like a lot of my local scenery, here in West Yorkshire. Hope this helps and good luck with your project. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Londontram Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Perhaps if your doing a U shaped end to end you could put the fiddle yard by the window then there's no problem of sunlight fading scenery and any heat warping could be kept to a minimum by over building the base boards at this point there's lots of computer programs to help you plan the layout but I went old school and drew out ideas on a roll of old wall paper and made basic card cut out buildings and stations ect. and just moved things around to test ideas. I had a few locos and coaches as well and planed movements like running round stock, shunting and such like. But like the others have said use the longest points you can, I got the long peco points for the main line and medium for the goods area, good luck and have fun regards Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satan's Goldfish Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 My 'rough rule of thumb' is bogie carriages and long bogie wagons = 1 in 12inches, short bogie wagons = 3 in 24 inches, modern long wheel base non-bogie wagons (think mgr coal hoppers) = 2 in 12inches, and old 4 wheel wagons (5 plank opens, wooden bodie vans) = 3 in 12 inches. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 .... I am just surprised that the manufacturers are not bombarding their customers with this information length, height, width, minimum radius bend, overhangs (determine the space between tracks if not standard) etc, ... Four of these are effectively taken care of. Height and width of accurate models are limited by the loading gauge in the UK, roughly nine feet wide maximum, thirteen feet high above rail top. Some vehicles will be well inside these dimensions of course, but if layout clearances are built for the maxima, all will be well. The manufacturers specify UK set track systems, 2nd radius minimum curvature. That takes care of the overhang issue as well, as set track is well overscale for normal double track spacing. Length, that you just have to know enough to make a good estimate, or check on a retailer's site. My feeling would be that the very limited supply of this information (the maker may quote a scale length of the prototype, but not the functional length over couplers of the model) reflects demand. If retailers were forever beating down the manufacturer's door to obtain this information as a prerequisite of making a sale to the customer, then it would be provided. If the user wishes to use other than set track, possibly using scale minimum track centres on main lines, that's left in their hands to determine what is possible. (Perhaps Rapido will set a new benchmark for UK RTR by providing guidance on the minimum acceptable radius for two of their APT-E sets to pass when the track is laid at scale minimum track centres?) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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