Controllers

[jimikelly]

what would be the better controller for me a Hornby HM2000 or a AMR controller via a Duett or is there a better way

[Miss Prism]

If you've got an AMR, don't throw it away. (Unless you want to throw it my way.)

[DCB]

It rather depends if you want to double head or bank your trains.  With the wide variety of gear ratios now employed it is pretty hopeless to try and bank using a Duette.

If you can't, won't go DCC you cant beat an elderly Hammant and Morgan variable transformer, a safety  Minor or similar, which gives a variable voltage and allows a Triang Hall to pilot a Hornby 72XX, on a Duette or other variable resistor controller the Hall slips furiously  while the 72XX crawls slowly.along  

 

see              

        as station pilot 4930 running tender first  'rescues' a winded 72XX powered by a Hammant and Morgan Safety Minor.   

[jimikelly]

So are all Hammant and Morgan variable transformers or is it just the safety minor

[DCB]

So are all Hammant and Morgan variable transformers or is it just the safety minor

No only the ones marked "Variable Transformer,"  the ones I have used have been branded "Safety Minor" while the Duette and several others have simple resistance mats

[hartleymartin]

I had heard about a DIY controller which apparently has a fantastic slow-speed control for motors, but you can only get the schematics emailed to you by the designer on the promise that you won't publish them. I'm interested in acquiring these schematics and building my own. Anyone know the circuit I'm talking about?

[Colin_McLeod]

There are plenty to be found with a quick Google. I don;t think anyone will make a fortune selling schematics for model railway controllers.

 

https://www.google.ie/search?q=schematic+for+model+railway+controller&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=V5nUU-XiC-n07Ab93oDgCQ&ved=0CCYQsAQ&biw=1280&bih=839

[DCB]

No matter what schematics or wiring you use I find the limiting factor in an electronic controller is the Potentiometer, they just don't turn as smoothly as the old H and M mechanism, the real problem is not slow running but in getting realistic starts and stops, any visit to a preserved railway will show the slow running beloved by exhibition operators is just about impossible in 12" to a foot scale as their controls wont allow it, even if they can accurately draw forward by one quarter turn of the driving wheel when easing up for uncoupling.

 

Actually when I go DCC (shortly after hell freezes over)  I will arrange DCC  working hand brakes in my Bachmann coaches so I can ease up without coaches moving,

[stewartingram]

A vote for them from me. I built my 1st one back in the early 70s, from a Wireless World design. Having built quite a few in the past, I really can't say I want anything different.

A Triang Jinty with an X04, , pulsing over pole by pole, slow enough to see the coupling hook gently rise and fall over the adjacent wagon's coupling, over a few seconds, is good enough for me.

A Wills J69, with I believe an MW005 motor and 80:1 gearing takes 1/2 hour to traverse a 1/2 circle of old Hornby 1st radius curves.

 Each to their own though. If anyone wants a copy of the plans pm me.

 

Stewart

[bike2steam]

I have used H&M controllers many decades in the past, but more recent layouts have seen the likes of Modelex, and Gaugemaster controllers out perform them by a vast difference. My present layout is controlled by a bespoke system built for me by Kevin Trim of Dorset Kits that I have yet to see a DCC system equal let alone out perform.

[CourthsVeil]

I had heard about a DIY controller which apparently has a fantastic slow-speed control for motors, ...

 

Much less complicated but very useful is this one. Highly recommended!

Regards

  Armin

[DCB]

What is this fetish about slow running, Full size steam locos seldom seem to run at any steady speed much less than 15 MPH  so why do we waste so much time making models do crazy things things. My 42xx since scrapped would do about 20 motor rpm on its Wrenn ringfield motor on 60 to 1 romford gearing on 18mm wheels  1200 mm /hr, a scale 1/18th of a mile per hour, powered by a H and M Safety Minor and completely and utterly useless.   

My point was the old H and M gives very smooth control and allows widely differing mechanisms to run together, double heading ir banking, something feed back controllers cannot cope with in my experience.

[Gwiwer]

An old Hammant & Morgan will almost certainly never let you down.  But don't be fooled into buying the recent Hornby-made HM2000 trading on the history of "genuine" ones.  The output is lower and with it the ability to control and run trains is compromised.   Since we are talking DC the more motors you have on one circuit the worse the performance will be.

 

If you are looking for something a little more recent and which is still likely to give sterling service for many more years than a layout lasts then look at the Gaugemaster range.  You can almost always find a model to suit your needs but in broad terms they come with one, two or four controllers, with or without braking effect (an unnecessary gimmick in my opinion unless you want to do a lot of very slows speed work) and either as standalone transformer / controllers or as separate components including faceplates to fit into a control panel.  Those also output a little more power than the HM2000 meaning you can run more motors on the same circuit (double-heading or banking) and the control is very smooth.

 

Better still in my opinion is the (admittedly limited) range offered by Morley which are superb controllers and offer an inbuilt CDU for your points as well.  Morley controller output a little more current again and mine happily accommodates a Heljan double-header drawing a lot of current on a heavy train making its way around 35 metres of DC-controlled layout.  The only issue I have with Morley is that the centre-off doesn't have a click to it meaning until you have become accustomed to that it is very easy to go straight through and suddenly reverse your locos.  You soon learn where the stop is. 

[Ray H]

The only issue I have with Morley is that the centre-off doesn't have a click to it meaning until you have become accustomed to that it is very easy to go straight through and suddenly reverse your locos.  You soon learn where the stop is.

Interestingly, there is a centre-off position on the Morley handheld controllers where they come as an inclusive alternative to the main unit. I couldn't fathom out why the base unit never had that feature.

[Donw]

I had heard about a DIY controller which apparently has a fantastic slow-speed control for motors, but you can only get the schematics emailed to you by the designer on the promise that you won't publish them. I'm interested in acquiring these schematics and building my own. Anyone know the circuit I'm talking about?

That sounds very much like Brian Tilbury's circuit. Jim Read uses it for 0 gauge (as do others) and mentions it on his Moxley Heath Thread

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/52613-moxley-heath-7mm-lt-rly-carl-arendt-challenge/page-2

 

Because the circuit is Brian's not his Jim will not publish it but will sent a copy to anyone who asks. I am not sure of how good the circuit is for coreless motors. I find that with quality motor gearbox combinations from ABC a simple emitter follower circuit works well but the motor gearboxes are not cheap.

Don

[bike2steam]

What is this fetish about slow running, Full size steam locos seldom seem to run at any steady speed much less than 15 MPH  so why do we waste so much time making models do crazy things things. My 42xx since scrapped would do about 20 motor rpm on its Wrenn ringfield motor on 60 to 1 romford gearing on 18mm wheels  1200 mm /hr, a scale 1/18th of a mile per hour, powered by a H and M Safety Minor and completely and utterly useless.   

My point was the old H and M gives very smooth control and allows widely differing mechanisms to run together, double heading ir banking, something feed back controllers cannot cope with in my experience.

When steam hauled freights approached Bescot yard off the old SSR from Wednesbury they would slow down before they came to the curved gradient going down to the yard, at between 5 to 10 mph, coming from the opposite direction from Walsall it would be more like 10 to 15 mph. Those are the actions which I want, and do emulate on my layout.

[Gwiwer]

Interestingly, there is a centre-off position on the Morley handheld controllers where they come as an inclusive alternative to the main unit. I couldn't fathom out why the base unit never had that feature.

 

To avoid any possible misunderstandings - Morley controllers all feature a centre-off on both the "box" and the wander leads.  None has a click.  Another of the great benefits of the Morley to me is those 5 metre "remote" leads with a little hand-held controller (which is extremely sensitive) and which can be extended to 10 metres if you need.  That means I can control train speed a long way away from the panel fir shunting and photography purposes.

[Ray H]

To avoid any possible misunderstandings - Morley controllers all feature a centre-off on both the "box" and the wander leads.  None has a click.  Another of the great benefits of the Morley to me is those 5 metre "remote" leads with a little hand-held controller (which is extremely sensitive) and which can be extended to 10 metres if you need.  That means I can control train speed a long way away from the panel fir shunting and photography purposes.

What I meant to say was that the handheld units on the O gauge twin Morley controller at our club have a centre-off with click which is what the "knobs" that are integral to the mains unit don't have.

 

Sorry for any confusion.

[hartleymartin]

Gaugemasters are available locally. I might head down to the local hobby shop with a yard of Peco O gauge flex and my locos and see if they'll do an in-store demonstration/trial.

[Roger.s]

What is this fetish about slow running, Full size steam locos seldom seem to run at any steady speed much less than 15 MPH  so why do we waste so much time making models do crazy things things.

We have this 'fetish' so that we can do crazy things such as making our trains stop in a realistic manner.

Full size trains take a long time to stop and traveling 100s of feet in the process. Model trains tend to stop almost instantly, traveling just a few millimeters. To make a prototypical stop we have to turn down the power slowly and drive the train slower and slower to a standstill. Obviously the controller must be able to control the train all the this is being done and this means running at all speeds between top speed and 0mph. At the point at which the controller cannot maintain the slow movement the train will stop with a jerk and if the speed is much more than say half an mph the effect is  unrealistic.

 

Regards Roger

[Gwiwer]

Realistic stopping and starting is influenced by the traction as much as the controller.  Even a skilled operator with everything in top notch order might have trouble getting a Lima loco to stop and start smoothly and progressively without sudden jerks.  That is due to the limitations of the pancake motor and current pickup arrangements.  It isn't always a piece of cake with a more expensive quality model either.  Heljan locos, notorious for high current draw, can also be notoriously sluggish off the mark.  Current is progressively applied but until it reaches a certain level across the motor the wretched thing doesn't want to move.  Then it pulls away to medium speed with a jerk.  I have learned to apply power a little at a time but then wind it back a fraction before applying more.  That seems to improve starting.  Stopping with the likes of Bachmann / Heljan heavyweight locos, and starting with Bachmann ones, can be very precise and realistic; also just like driving real train it takes a little time to perfect the skill.