S.A.C Martin Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 I write to alert LNER and BR Eastern region modellers and others interested in the Coronation streamlined train to the development of a new kit for the Beavertail observation coach. The intention of its designer is to produce an injection moulded, plastic kit presented as a simple knock down kit in a style not dissimilar to Dapol's non-corridor Staniers but with detail akin to that of the latest Hornby Railroad Mk1 coaches. I can't give many details on the project because the small team of two individuals behind it would prefer some anonymity whilst designing the kit, however I can give a few details as to what is envisaged: 1) Moulded detail of a high standard to simplify production 2) Careful design to enable easy snap together construction 3) Metal wheel sets 4) NEM pockets at front and rear 5) Both the original LNER beavertail to be produced, and the BR condition one later on reusing as many parts as possible in its design 6) Simple livery application to keep costs down and aid modellers looking to convert/re-livery The model is being designed by an up and coming designer and is being commissioned by an individual. There is therefore no guarantee that this will appear for the general public for a good while and therefore no requirement to sign up, pay deposits, etc, on that basis. However I have it on good authority that costs to convert the CADwork and produce tooling for injection moulding have been examined and they are favourable for the individual commissioning the kit to pay for this provided the design of the model is up to scratch. This I am in no doubt of personally given the track record of the designer chosen for this project. Should the Observation coach do well there is the possibility of the other coaches in the set appearing to the same specification to match. The purpose of this thread is to invite discussion about the potential for the model, and to make a small plea for any information you may think is of interest or important to the development of the model. I know that the team designing the kit are examining Gresley bogie types in particular to make sure they have the right type and look on the model. If there are any photographs the designers should be looking at, some assistance in locating these and examining them would be appreciated. Particularly the original style observation coach, as although the team have access to general drawings and some photographs of the existing pair, period photographs are harder to come by and would aid enormously in getting the details right first time. I can't promise to answer every question but I'm happy to field them as their contact on this forum and elsewhere. I know that they would be happy to release CAD drawings for modellers to examine on here for further investigation and critique. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-BOAF Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 Sounds like a great idea. I'd be up for one of each (original and rebuilt in BR maroon) Any chance of a close coupling cam mechanism being incorporated? A non close-coupled coach at the end of a close coupled rake looks silly. While on the subject, would the designers consider using 'off the shelf' parts from Hornby/Bachmann available as spares. I'm thinking particularly of the excellent Gresley Bogies from Hornby. Similarly with a close coupling mechanism, if the Hornby cams/springs (e.g. from Pullmans - available as spares) could be designed in to the kit for the user to source and fit as they choose... I know there are risks associated with making a product dependet on parts by another manufacturer, but.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted August 11, 2014 Author Share Posted August 11, 2014 Sounds like a great idea. I'd be up for one of each (original and rebuilt in BR maroon) Any chance of a close coupling cam mechanism being incorporated? A non close-coupled coach at the end of a close coupled rake looks silly. While on the subject, would the designers consider using 'off the shelf' parts from Hornby/Bachmann available as spares. I'm thinking particularly of the excellent Gresley Bogies from Hornby. Similarly with a close coupling mechanism, if the Hornby cams/springs (e.g. from Pullmans - available as spares) could be designed in to the kit for the user to source and fit as they choose... I know there are risks associated with making a product dependet on parts by another manufacturer, but.... I will put the close coupling cam idea forward to the designer in the morning. However I can say categorically that no off the shelf parts are going to be in use or designed to be compatible with this kit, aside from the obligatory NEM pocket to the appropriate standards allowing different couplings to be utilised. This for the precise reason of not wanting to be dependent on another manufacturer. This is intended to be very much its own product. A few people here and elsewhere have commented on the lack of plastic coach kits: this idea has been in mind for a long time I am assured and I'm happy it is starting to take shape and develop. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidw Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 I'll watch with interest Si. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Cram Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 The use of standard 26mm pin point axles would be of benefit for conversion to P4/EM. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted August 11, 2014 Author Share Posted August 11, 2014 The use of standard 26mm pin point axles would be of benefit for conversion to P4/EM. I will inquire as to how feasible this is. The kit is intended to be OO gauge but that shouldn't preclude making it feasible for other gauges. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaymzHatstand Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 This sounds most interesting! Fortunately the livery of even the coronation stock is fairly simple in terms of application, just the silver trim being a bit fiddly! Underframe detail wouldn't be an issue either as it was all hidden by the streamlined fairing. The only thing to watch are the footsteps below the doors. There are a few photos in the Michael Harris book LNER Carriages, which is a staple of any ER stock modeller! I look forward to any future developments as I'm currently in the process of improving a set of mailcoach coaches and any thing that makes that easier is more than welcome! Cheers J Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-BOAF Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 One more thing, make sure there is provision for fitting a coupling at the 'observation' end. An odd omission from Hornby's Pullman Obo which precludes running round or shunting. (also means you can tool one bogie rather than two!) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard Lamb Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 One more thing, make sure there is provision for fitting a coupling at the 'observation' end. An odd omission from Hornby's Pullman Obo which precludes running round or shunting. (also means you can tool one bogie rather than two!) Hang on a minute. Higher up the thread there was talk of a close coupling mechanism being incorporated. I would suggest that is the way to go on any new introduction. Build the couplings into the body rather than the bogie and that little problem is solved. Now that Bachmann are using on DMUs as well as coaches I would suggest that it is no longer a novelty but has become a standard fitting. Just like it has been on the mainland for many a long year. It does solve your question regarding bogies. I do like the sound of this project. Good luck to those people behind it. Bernard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Accurascale Fran Posted August 12, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 12, 2014 I know it's very early days but any idea on price? Even a ballpark figure? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted August 12, 2014 Author Share Posted August 12, 2014 This sounds most interesting! Fortunately the livery of even the coronation stock is fairly simple in terms of application, just the silver trim being a bit fiddly! Underframe detail wouldn't be an issue either as it was all hidden by the streamlined fairing. The only thing to watch are the footsteps below the doors. There are a few photos in the Michael Harris book LNER Carriages, which is a staple of any ER stock modeller! I look forward to any future developments as I'm currently in the process of improving a set of mailcoach coaches and any thing that makes that easier is more than welcome! Cheers J Thanks Jay. I do have that book and will flick through it to see what I can send onto the team. I think it was the price of the Golden Age models and the age of the Mailcoach kits (good for their time mind) that prompted this choice. One thing I think is correct, under frame detail would probably be present on all models as it will probably end up cheaper to tool up just one chassis for each coach and add the valancing to create the LNER era model. I will investigate the thinking behind the design however and ask the designer his thoughts. One more thing, make sure there is provision for fitting a coupling at the 'observation' end. An odd omission from Hornby's Pullman Obo which precludes running round or shunting. (also means you can tool one bogie rather than two!) I agree and will pass that observation (ha ha) on. Hang on a minute. Higher up the thread there was talk of a close coupling mechanism being incorporated. I would suggest that is the way to go on any new introduction. Build the couplings into the body rather than the bogie and that little problem is solved. Now that Bachmann are using on DMUs as well as coaches I would suggest that it is no longer a novelty but has become a standard fitting. Just like it has been on the mainland for many a long year. It does solve your question regarding bogies. I do like the sound of this project. Good luck to those people behind it. Bernard Thanks Bernard - I will make a note of this too and will pass the comments onto the team. I know it's very early days but any idea on price? Even a ballpark figure? None whatsoever, not even a ballpark figure I am afraid. If I were to hazard a guess, it is likely to be less than £50…! But I honestly could not give you any figure as I simply don't know at the moment. I will press for an answer from the team though I hope you will appreciate, an answer may not be forthcoming as yet. It's early days though I understand tooling costs for injection moulding have been investigated and are favourable for a short run of knock down kits. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted August 12, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 12, 2014 Now when did it run on the WR I wonder? Sounds like a very interesting project and might success lead to further offerings? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted August 12, 2014 Author Share Posted August 12, 2014 Now when did it run on the WR I wonder? Sounds like a very interesting project and might success lead to further offerings? The rest of the Coronation set has been talked about most definitely, and of course that would lead to other liveries on the coaches being done too. For the time being the efforts are being concentrated on the one coach as a "toe in the water" so to speak, albeit in both as built and rebuilt guises. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Accurascale Fran Posted August 12, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 12, 2014 None whatsoever, not even a ballpark figure I am afraid. If I were to hazard a guess, it is likely to be less than £50…! But I honestly could not give you any figure as I simply don't know at the moment. I will press for an answer from the team though I hope you will appreciate, an answer may not be forthcoming as yet. It's early days though I understand tooling costs for injection moulding have been investigated and are favourable for a short run of knock down kits. Cheers, will watch on with interest. If it looks like the real thing and is reasonably priced (and I'm fairly reasonable!) then I can seem myself having one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-BOAF Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 My comment about only one bogie tool being needed was based on the Hornby Obo, where one bogie has a coupling fitting (or recess to take cam system) and the other end has a complete cross beam on the bogie. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonhall Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 Isn't there already a plastic kit of this prototype? Seems a bit odd to have two... Jon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaymzHatstand Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 I take your point about the underframe, I'd totally forgotten about the latter version, so it would make sense to have all the detail there, especially if done as a one piece moulding, then hide it behind the valances than go to the trouble of tooling up two floors. The same goes for the other coaches, as after the war they ran with plain underframes and not as a complete set. Some received extra doors under BR, and this is also covered in the Harris tome. What sort of detail is to be done for the interior, as with those big Windows on the beaver tail it will be very visible. Cheers J Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted August 12, 2014 Author Share Posted August 12, 2014 Isn't there already a plastic kit of this prototype? Seems a bit odd to have two... Jon There is - it's a product of its time, not readily available and has several clear dimensional errors. Then there's golden ages one - beautifully made, some shape issues again and not really RTR friendly. It's a bit like saying there's the old Hornby Mk1, why should Bachmann make theirs? In any event, it's not the same thing. It's a knock down, snap together kit - minimal assembly required. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted August 12, 2014 Author Share Posted August 12, 2014 I take your point about the underframe, I'd totally forgotten about the latter version, so it would make sense to have all the detail there, especially if done as a one piece moulding, then hide it behind the valances than go to the trouble of tooling up two floors. The same goes for the other coaches, as after the war they ran with plain underframes and not as a complete set. Some received extra doors under BR, and this is also covered in the Harris tome. What sort of detail is to be done for the interior, as with those big Windows on the beaver tail it will be very visible. Cheers J I will ask about the interior. I suspect it won't be painted but the moulded detail is likely to replicate the interior reasonably. Anyone who has built the Mailcoach kit will know that it is quite a simple interior in the observation coach in terms of the seating arrangements, so it shouldn't be too difficult I would have thought to replicate the original more closely. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micklner Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Isn't there already a plastic kit of this prototype? Seems a bit odd to have two... Jon Further to Simons reply. Have you actually seen the Mailcoach kit dire is being polite. I look forward to a decent one and the train to go with it !! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Isn't there already a plastic kit of this prototype? Seems a bit odd to have two... Jon There is - it's a product of its time, not readily available and has several clear dimensional errors..... Further to Simons reply. Have you actually seen the Mailcoach kit dire is being polite. I look forward to a decent one and the train to go with it !! For those who haven't seen the Mailcoach effort (and that assumes you can even get your hands on one), here's one somebody built earlier.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micklner Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 For those who haven't seen the Mailcoach effort (and that assumes you can even get your hands on one), here's one somebody built earlier.... Wonder if was ever finished ? The pictures of the ready glazed/ moulded sides sums it up nicely they looked like frosted glass they are that poor. How do I know? I have built a Mailcoach Tourist set using the same design idea. Vowed to never touch a similar Mailcoach kit again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Wonder if was ever finished?... He probably found out about the errors later.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted August 13, 2014 Author Share Posted August 13, 2014 I've been asked today as to why this coach has been chosen. Put simply, the individual commissioning it wanted one for himself and the thought of turning it into a product appealed, particularly as its a very iconic named express and would fit in nicely in both pre and post war LNER/BR eastern region modelling in a variety of liveries and two different body styles. Should it do well, the rest of the pre-war train and no doubt post-war accompanying coaches would be looked at and developed in a same vein. Anyone who is looking for something akin to the Hornby Thompson or Gresley non corridors might be disappointed, the intention is to detail the model akin to the latest Railroad Mk1s. Major advantages in design and tooling aside, it would also keep the costs down to the consumer at the end of the chain. I personally am helping to collate information in various forms and have been very grateful for the sage counsel and advice already given here and elsewhere. Hopefully it will all lead to a more accurate model. I am supremely confident of the designer's abilities to produce this to a high standard. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allegheny1600 Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Thank goodness for this! I have been fancying a few pre war LNER trains of which this is one and I didn't fancy brass prices very much! One more willing supporter here. Cheers, John E. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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