Joint GWR & LMS branch lines

[Darfield Boy]

I would like to model a GWR branch line and would like to know if the LMS ever frequented these lines and if so what sort of locomotives would be used? As I am based in New Zealand I am not sure of locations, I do have a selection of small prairies, 14xx, collet goods, 57xx and a railcar. I would appreciate if anyone is able to help or point me in the direction of websites for further reading. The time period that I would like to model is 1946/47 GWR pre-nationaliastion

 

Thanks

 

Chris

[Norton961]

Chris,

There are two options for running LMS and G W together, a joint line such as the Minsterley branch in Shropshire which left the Shrewsbury to Welshpool line or where one company had running powers over the others line. As an example the LMS had running powers between Pontardulas and Llandilo in Central Wales. This enabled the LMS to run its Central Wales line service between Cravan Arms and Swansea using a section of the GW. Other joint lines include the main line between Shrewsbury and Hereford.

Other joint branches in Shropshire are as follows:

Wooferton to Tenbury Wells

Ludlow to Cleese Hill, this was freight only.

 

Running powers allowed the GWR to get into Crewe from its limit at Nantwhich.

If you move your period to BR there are more possibilities so the line from Nantwitch to Wellington which although belong to the Western Region had lots of ex LMS locos working the line.

 

David

[corneliuslundie]

Small correction: Clee Hill.

 

In South Wales the LNWR got hold of some lines which the GWR would have liked to own. This meant that, for example, GWR coal trains from Aberdare to England often ran from Sirhowy Junction on the Pontypool Road to Neath line to Nine Mile Point along an LNWR/LMS line on the way to Newport.

 

Merthyr High Street was GWR but used by the LMS Heads of the Valleys trains.

 

The ex Rhymney Railway line from Rhymney to Nantybwch (from Rhymney Bridge to Nantybwch forming part of the Heads of the Valleys route) was joint with the LNWR/LMS.

 

Abersychan & Talywain was LMS with GWR running powers.

 

The Severn & Wye was joint GWR and LMS.

[Fat Controller]

Colbren Junction to Three Cocks Jct, which gave the Midland a route to Swansea. At Colbren, the Midland route from St Thomas's station joined the Neath and Brecon line, the Midland trains having running rights over the latter as far as Three Cocks, whence they were to run on Midland lines again, as far as Hereford. At this point, the train would encounter either the 'North and West' joint L&NWR/GWR line, or run over GWR metals to Worcester and beyond, before encountering Midland metals again.

Another joint line was the one from Narroways Hill Junction (north of Stapleton Road) to Avonmouth Docks, which gave the Midland a route to Avonmouth docks; there was a GWR passenger service from Bristol TM to Severn Beach and Pilning, and an LMS one from Mangotsfield to Avonmouth, which joined the line at a junction between Narroways Hill and Montpelier stations.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Bristol - Avonmouth a very useful prototype for modellers. Compact stations, tunnels, retaining walls and all sorts of traffic to justify some quite large locos.

[TheQ]

Not quite a branch line  but the traffic was similar most of the time, The line from Cheltenham To Andover connected LMS (Midland) to GWR (MSWJR) to Southern (LSWR) And whilst it was in your time period mostly GWR Some LMS stock would run through to Southampton. On top of that the miltary trains would run through with almost any stock going (and occationally Locos), normally from where ever the regiment originated

 The Route is Blue, which I think would allow all your locos to run ( but I'm no expert on that). I believe rail cars were tried on that line but were not normally used ( but since Swindon is in the middle of the line who says there can't be a trial run out?)

 This line would give you a range of station possibilities See Swindonsotherrailways.co.uk site for maps and other details

The Q

[John_Miles]

Halesowen is another possibility. The station wasn't too big and you can run a good variety of trains. The Severn & Wye was joint and I think both companies accessed Sharpness Docks from Berkeley Road. The Neath & Brecon line from Ynyisygeinon through Colbren to Brecon only saw regular LMS traffic until around 1932. Until this period the line was used almost exclusively by the LMS, the GWR just running a few specials. After 1932 the situation reversed and the LMS only ran excursions such as specials to the Birmingham onion fair - whatever that was. I guess life was less exciting in those days.

[Fat Controller]

Halesowen is another possibility. The station wasn't too big and you can run a good variety of trains. The Severn & Wye was joint and I think both companies accessed Sharpness Docks from Berkeley Road. The Neath & Brecon line from Ynyisygeinon through Colbren to Brecon only saw regular LMS traffic until around 1932. Until this period the line was used almost exclusively by the LMS, the GWR just running a few specials. After 1932 the situation reversed and the LMS only ran excursions such as specials to the Birmingham onion fair - whatever that was. I guess life was less exciting in those days.

This would have meant the LMS (ex-Midland) presence in the Swansea Valley being isolated from their main network; even accessing the ex-LNWR shed at Parson St would have involved using GWR/ Swansea Harbour Trust metals.

[DavidR]

How about the Halesowen branch, in the Black Country? It ran from Longbridge Junc. (where Rover/British Leyland used to reside), on the LMS Birmingham- Bristol main line, to Halesowen. It was single track throughout, with passing places at Rubery and Hunnington and because of the spindly viaduct at Dowery Dell, it precluded the use of any thing but light 0-6-0s, either tank or tender. The GWR worked the branch from the other end, Old Hill to Halesowen. Passenger services were withdrawn in 1929, but the GWR worked passenger trains, for workman at Longbridge, to and from Old Hill - Longbridge until 1959/60. Would make an ideal model: 4 wheel coaches, pannier tanks and Midland 2f's and Clerestory Midland coaches. The grandest engine seen at Halesowen was a Midland single wheeler ( a 'Spinner'), I have a photo somewhere. The station buildings at Halesowen were a GWR standard sort and a simple Midland shelter. The signal box was a small GWR type. Halesowen also had a large,busy, goods depot (joint LMS/GWR) and a canal basin linking up. Plenty to model there!

 

Edit: can't spell Leyland!

[Banger Blue]

What about Chester - Birkenhead? Was that not joint GWR / LMS?

[Joseph_Pestell]

What about Chester - Birkenhead? Was that not joint GWR / LMS?

 

But hardly a branch line.

 

It did have a rather circuitous branch off it to West Kirby, where the small single platform station was a short distance away from the larger Wirral Railway (LMS) station. Although part of the Joint, I can't remember seeing photos of anything other than GW locos on the West Kirby branch.

[Banger Blue]

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/h/hadlow_road/index.shtml

 

Hadlow Rd was on the joint GW/LMS branch line from Hooton - West Kirby and is 'preserved' in 1950's condition as part of the 'Wirral Way' walking trail. The link above has some photos as was and as is, also a map with the track layout on it.

[beast66606]

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/h/hadlow_road/index.shtml

 

Hadlow Rd was on the joint GW/LMS branch line from Hooton - West Kirby and is 'preserved' in 1950's condition as part of the 'Wirral Way' walking trail. The link above has some photos as was and as is, also a map with the track layout on it.

 

The preserved signal box is not the original, it's a North Staffs import.

[Andy Kirkham]

Bristol - Avonmouth a very useful prototype for modellers. Compact stations, tunnels, retaining walls and all sorts of traffic to justify some quite large locos.

...including Somerset & Dorset 2-8-0's.

 

There were frequent excursions from South Wales for Bristol Zoo, often headed by GWR freight locos (certainly 28XX, perhaps 72XX) and boat trains (which were hauled by industrial 0-6-0STs within the docks area).

[Darfield Boy]

Thanks for all the replies and advice and the website. I am very pleased to find out that I can consider running some LMS locomotives alongside my GWR ones. I do have a liking for the LMS Class 4P 2-6-4 tank locomotives, would these have been found on GWR lines? if not which locos would have been?

 

Thanks

 

Chris

[bike2steam]

You mean something like the Wellington to Crewe branch via Market Drayton.

[The Stationmaster]

How about something based on the Halesowen Joint - single line, small engines, Dowery Dell viaduct, workers trains to/from Longbridge plus freight traffic?

[Fat Controller]

Thanks for all the replies and advice and the website. I am very pleased to find out that I can consider running some LMS locomotives alongside my GWR ones. I do have a liking for the LMS Class 4P 2-6-4 tank locomotives, would these have been found on GWR lines? if not which locos would have been?

 

Thanks

 

Chris

Definitely on the Central Wales (now 'Heart of Wales') line; they used to work some long turns, such as Swansea Victoria- Shrewsbury, I believe.

[John_Miles]

 

This would have meant the LMS (ex-Midland) presence in the Swansea Valley being isolated from their main network; even accessing the ex-LNWR shed at Parson St would have involved using GWR/ Swansea Harbour Trust metals.

Basically yes, The connection through the docks from Paxton Street to St Thomas was used on a frequent basis. I think there were regular movements of goods wagons because the LMS switched the through freights from the line via Brecon to the Central Wales which was rather under utilised before this change.

[Andy Kirkham]

Halesowen is another possibility. The station wasn't too big and you can run a good variety of trains. The Severn & Wye was joint and I think both companies accessed Sharpness Docks from Berkeley Road. The Neath & Brecon line from Ynyisygeinon through Colbren to Brecon only saw regular LMS traffic until around 1932. Until this period the line was used almost exclusively by the LMS, the GWR just running a few specials. After 1932 the situation reversed and the LMS only ran excursions such as specials to the Birmingham onion fair - whatever that was. I guess life was less exciting in those days.

Before the Grouping, the Neath & Brecon between Brecon and Ynyisygeinon was an integral part of the Midland system in everything except ownership; only Midland trains ran on it; N&B services were confined to the Neath-Colbren section. So it seems perverse that the N&B should have been grouped with the GWR.

[Clive Mortimore]

No one has mentioned the Forest of Dean and Severn & Wye Joint Railway, this was a MR and GWR joint line. By the mid 1940s it was worked by the GWR, the LMS was just helping to pay the bills.

[Innerhome]

Another possibility would be the Cambrian around Afon Wen where the LMS branch line from Carmarthen joined the Cambrian Coast line. As I understand it LMS engines could go down to Porthmadoc - and there were holiday expresses from the LMS line to the Butlins Holiday Camp. This would allow the 2-6-4 tank engines - (and black fives) but I don't know if railcars or 14xx ever appeared.  (various books by W G Rear)

[Fat Controller]

Another possibility would be the Cambrian around Afon Wen where the LMS branch line from Carmarthen joined the Cambrian Coast line. As I understand it LMS engines could go down to Porthmadoc - and there were holiday expresses from the LMS line to the Butlins Holiday Camp. This would allow the 2-6-4 tank engines - (and black fives) but I don't know if railcars or 14xx ever appeared.  (various books by W G Rear)

Caernarfon, I think; 'Merlin's Castle' is somewhat further south.

However, there was a short section with both L&NWR/ LMS and GWR operations between the junction of the Llandeilo (LMS) and Aberystwyth (GWR) lines near Glangwili and Carmarthen Town station.

[TheQ]

Before the Grouping, the Neath & Brecon between Brecon and Ynyisygeinon was an integral part of the Midland system in everything except ownership; only Midland trains ran on it; N&B services were confined to the Neath-Colbren section. So it seems perverse that the N&B should have been grouped with the GWR.

The grouping of the MSWJR with GWR was equally as perverse, it owed LMS /Midland money and i think Midland may have held shares. GWR didn't want the line except to stop LMS or Southern getting it. It was the worst possible decision for the MSWJR.