Revenue Protection? Its a joke on Northern Rail

[newbryford]

Saturday night (slight) rant time......

 

About 9pm tonight, along with about 8 others, I boarded a local service for a 10 minute journey to the end of the line. It's an unstaffed station and the train (a 156) had about 25-30 people on board. No sign of the guard coming to collect fares and my travelling companions (who use the service regularly) said that they never come down the train.

 

The return service a few minutes ago was the same - no sign of the guard and about 40 people on board - of which at least 35 were going further than me as I disembarked the train.

I would gladly pay for the service, but what am I supposed to do? Go down the train and find the guard?

 

Is Northern Rail a charity? Discuss.

 

Cheers,

Mick

 

 

['CHARD]

Ticketless travel is highlighted in the new franchise prospectus, currently out for consultation.  

 

It is reportedly a huge issue that the DfT and other specifying parties (the five ITAs) will be looking to franchise bidders to address very robustly in their proposals.

[woodenhead]

They depend I think on the stations in Manchester which do have revenue protection staff around even late on a Saturday. If the train is headed in or out of Manchester then they will pick up most fares but people only doing part of a journey from unstaffed without ticket machines are likely not to be asked for a fare.

 

Not ideal, but it must be sanctioned from high else they would be challenging the guards on the lack of ticket sales on late night services taken on the trains.

[newbryford]

They depend I think on the stations in Manchester which do have revenue protection staff around even late on a Saturday. If the train is headed in or out of Manchester then they will pick up most fares but people only doing part of a journey from unstaffed without ticket machines are likely not to be asked for a fare.

 

Not ideal, but it must be sanctioned from high else they would be challenging the guards on the lack of ticket sales on late night services taken on the trains.

 

The service was a Manchester-Clitheroe and return. I've travelled outbound from Manchester at 2100 before now on a weekday and never asked to show a valid ticket.

 

No wonder that Northern Rail reputedly have the lowest average ticket price (somewhere in the £2-odd bracket).

 

Cheers,

Mick

[DavidLong]

 

No wonder that Northern Rail reputedly have the lowest average ticket price (somewhere in the £2-odd bracket).

 

Cheers,

Mick

 

They are about to go up in certain circumstances. From September 8th there will be an evening peak from 16.00 to 18.30 when off-peak tickets won't be valid. Previously from my local station an off-peak return bought after 09.30 would cost £4.20 for return anytime. In the new regime, if you plan to return in the evening peak, you will need an Anytime ticket for £7.70. The DfT have repeatedly made it known that they found fare levels on Northern to be unacceptable and I can see this as a first step in increasing revenue from the Northern franchise.

 

David

[TheSignalEngineer]

Travelled last week from Marple to Liverpool by Northern and only showed my ticket to get off the platform at Lime St. 

[david58041]

This is also a problem in the north east.

 

One day last week my son travelled from an unmanned station to service destination station - a journey of 8 minutes.  Three people got onto the train but none were spoken to by the guard/conductor or whatever they are called.  My son being 15 saved £2.05.  This being the day next years train fare increases were announced!

 

David

[kevinlms]

A question on this.

 

What other methods are available to purchase a ticket, other than at a station or on board a train, in the case of unmanned stations?

 

In Victoria, Australia there is an expectation that an intending passenger has to have a pre-paid electronic card (called Myki), which has to be scanned before/on boarding vehicles (trains, trams & buses) and also on leaving. If fact anyone travelling without 1/ the ticket with sufficient credit on it, or 2/ without scanning it, is deemed to be travelling without a ticket.

 

The fact there is no one to sell them a ticket, is no excuse and so they shouldn't be travelling, without one.

[AngryMeerkat]

I read somewhere recently (possibly the RailUK forums) that guards on Northern services, particularly around Liverpool and Manchester, have been told not to do the ticket walk after a certain time for their own safety. It's a sad reflection that the threat of violence is stopping a company legitimately going about its business, but it's better than rail staff getting assaulted over £2.

 

Mark

[trisonic]

A question on this.

 

What other methods are available to purchase a ticket, other than at a station or on board a train, in the case of unmanned stations?

 

In Victoria, Australia there is an expectation that an intending passenger has to have a pre-paid electronic card (called Myki), which has to be scanned before/on boarding vehicles (trains, trams & buses) and also on leaving. If fact anyone travelling without 1/ the ticket with sufficient credit on it, or 2/ without scanning it, is deemed to be travelling without a ticket.

 

The fact there is no one to sell them a ticket, is no excuse and so they shouldn't be travelling, without one.

That’s what happens on my local NJT line (USA) with one exception.  At all times  there are at least two conductors on every train - usually burly sorts late at night. 

Actually to be fair Kevin may have omitted to point this out for Victoria....

 

Best, Pete.

[Huw Griffiths]

A number of years back, when I was commuting to and from a previous job, I needed to change trains at a number of places - which I found irritating, but not as irritating as one TOC's approach to catching travel thieves fare dodgers.

 

Tickets seemed to get checked once or twice a week on trains - and very rarely at certain stations.

 

Every so often, the TOC would decide that they needed to prove to the powers-that-be that they might actually intend to penalise the freeloading scum (as opposed to us long-suffering, honest, passengers who paid our fares) - so they decided to lay on free entertainment.

 

That's right - once in a blue moon, they'd blitz one train or one station with a SWAT team of Rottweilers Revenue Protection Officers (other, less user-friendly, names are available), who could be heard loudly and aggressively shouting about how the TOC hated travel thieves and enjoyed prosecuting offenders.

 

Good.

 

Very good, in fact - or at least it would have been, if the TOC hadn't ruined the element of surprise by putting out Tannoy warnings (at other stations - and on trains), to let our dishonest travelling "companions" know where and when ticket checks were going to be done.

 

Despite the TOC undermining their revenue protection in this way, they still managed to catch a lot of offenders - the excuses (and subsequent exchanges) were extremely entertaining. You know the sort of thing - "the dog ate my ticket" - followed by a thorough (and loud) mauling.

 

 

Meanwhile, us honest types would be lapping it up - and it wasn't Schadenfreude on our part - well not much, anyway.

 

No - it was merely the thought that if the TOC were finally to think about getting serious about cracking down on travel theft, they might actually be able to afford to start running an effective service - or at least reduce their fares to merely stratospheric levels.

 

Well, we could but dream ... .

 

 

Huw.

[darrel]

In the defense of on train staff. They have no back up from the British Transport police who never turn up and are a waste of time and money. To the point that I no longer ask for them I just phone the proper police who always turn up.

[Robert Shrives]

Hi all,

 

Fully understand the frustration with ticket and revenue protection. Sadly the delay payment culture to NR for late running trains is such that getting staff to a train to collected the £2.50 fare could cost upwards of £100 a minute to do so. I have seen a three minute delay Ely blossom into 46 minutes directly to train and over 100 in reactionary delays, albeit these not £100 a minute  -  a complicated system determines amounts...  It would not be often that the revenue would cover this and legal costs in court - most don`t even turn up and maximum fine imposed is hollow as no one tries to collect - and sadly the removal of civil liberty is totally missing so the risk assement by the non payer says it is worth it every time.. a seemingly British culture thing ? Certainly not common in many parts of Europe I am told by travellers.

It is a shame however in parts of NS that conductors work in pairs on late evening services.

 

Lonodn Midland as a cost cutting measure ( DfT inspired) saw revenue inspectors removed recently - albeit some kept for station duties and LM do not even have enough staff to man BHM New St barriers 24/7.  On a train last year I overheard two passengers discussing how the trains were like buses now with only a driver on them, clearly never seen a conductor!

 

BTP have a hard task as they are understaffed and over tasked. They will always be in the wrong place and it is an educational uphill battle to get crews to bring dodgers to a manned station where BTP can meet the train. There is little point in a conductor getting into a verbal row with a dodger and then refusing to take the train from Oakham until the police turn up. It is good to make the statement walk away allowing the fool to think they have won only to find the boys in blue waiting at Leicester or Peterbrough.... personally a taser would be a good issue item. 

 

Certainly having seen the cattle market supplies travelling into and out of Doncaster Fri and Sat night going to pubs and clubs already tanked up I would be reluctant to expose my back without support whilst carrying a plastic ticketmachine and company money. Having a decent machine - Sportis and a bardic handlamp as tools of the trade for self defense always worked for me in the 90s  in the west midlands when parts of WM sub life were on the move - not a pretty sight !!! Flag sticks make good protection tools as well when walking Moor St - New st after 20.00, which is hardly late, but necessary at times - speaking from experience!!!

 

So rather than chastise Northern staff I would rather see a culture in UK where trying it on and petty crime were seen as unacceptable behaviour. How to teach this to the feral classes is not easy due the endemic cultral ills of this little Island... but also of course we have seen how the "greater good" think its ok to abuse and "get away with it "   I fear the police state not too far away where education is a big stick thing! railway reveue hardly gets on the radar 

 

Robert      

[Glorious NSE]

I read somewhere recently (possibly the RailUK forums) that guards on Northern services, particularly around Liverpool and Manchester, have been told not to do the ticket walk after a certain time for their own safety. It's a sad reflection that the threat of violence is stopping a company legitimately going about its business, but it's better than rail staff getting assaulted over £2.

 

Mark

If that's true they need to be somewhat careful IMHO, with the pressure to cut operating costs of regional services pushing operators toward DOO, selling tickets is their strongest argument for keeping employment. If it's the unions recommending that they may be protecting their members all the way to the job centre.

['CHARD]

In the defense of on train staff. They have no back up from the British Transport police who never turn up and are a waste of time and money. To the point that I no longer ask for them I just phone the proper police who always turn up.

Are your opinions.

 

I won't be a mouthpiece for the BTP members on here, but from a personal perspective I don't share your experience, your sentiments, or your slander.

[multiprinter]

Are your opinions.

 

I won't be a mouthpiece for the BTP members on here, but from a personal perspective I don't share your experience, your sentiments, or your slander.

 

Regrettably, to on train staff, the BTP in England and Wales have been a bad joke for a very long time.

[darrel]

Are your opinions.

 

I won't be a mouthpiece for the BTP members on here, but from a personal perspective I don't share your experience, your sentiments, or your slander.

Put it this way in 25 years I have asked for BTP assistance 30 times, They have turned up twice. I have asked for the local police 3 times they have turned up 3 times.

Now the Times I have asked for the BTP it has been when I have thought I had a reasonable chance of getting them.

['CHARD]

Disagree as much as you want, the comments made earlier were unsubstantiated, personal and potentially very offensive to members on here.

EDIT: since substantiated.

 

How well do YOU know what BTP officers have to put up with, or haven't you noticed the very real police-bashing rife in the UK just now?

 

I don't deny what on board staff have to put up with, but as others have said - the culture and commercial imperatives of today's railway are hardly conducive to BTP being able to scramble to any train at any milepost at any time of day or night.

 

There are good and bad employees in any profession, please don't denigrate and run-down all concerned.  I could just as well say train managers are jobsworth clock-watching, non-customer focused sociopaths, and from a commuter's perspective they have been for a very long time.  It would be an opinion, based on god knows what, and it would rightly be treated at least with suspicion, if not declared as downright inflammatory.

 

 

EDIT: thanks Darrel for quantifying based on your experience.  Maybe I only associate with decent, well-balanced BTP personnel.

[woodenhead]

I would suspect most fare dodging issues occur outside main cities. Take Manchester as an example, on. Friday/Saturday night revenue protection and BTP and Community police all congregate on Victoria, Piccadilly, Oxford Rd and Deansgate stations as that is where most of the custom is entering/exiting through. At these points the guard is more concerned with closing the doors and getting the train away with platform staff maintaining the peace especially on 'last' trains. Once past these stations there won't be many people boarding but a lot of people alighting at stations, therefore no need for the guard to do any revenue collection on train.

 

In the week when the Central Manchester prescience is less at the stations, up to a certain time the guards do collect fares between stations so will come across dodgers and the like. If they get an idiot at an outlying station BTP aren't going to be close by and the laws of physics will apply for them to get to a station in time to meet the train before the idiot gets off never to be seen again. I guess that just like the normal police, BTP have to weigh up each request for their services against the events going on, the chance of getting to the train and what the likely outcome will be.

[great central]

This is an often mentioned thing. All I can say is some of the complainers should see what we have to deal with on a regular basis on late night trains. 

I seem to recall having heard that there can be real problems on that line. 

As a railway employee I can't say much more. But I've even had a severe verbal assault before 07.00 when somebody wanted to use his Merseyrail pass to get to Aberdeen   What he was threatening to do to me as he left my train would be censored on here! Funny side to it, was on April Fools day.

[great central]

I read somewhere recently (possibly the RailUK forums) that guards on Northern services, particularly around Liverpool and Manchester, have been told not to do the ticket walk after a certain time for their own safety. It's a sad reflection that the threat of violence is stopping a company legitimately going about its business, but it's better than rail staff getting assaulted over £2.

 

Mark

 

Not just trains either. A few years ago I used to own a shop in a small town. After about 20.00 from Thursday to Sunday it became pretty much a no go area. Hordes of feral youths, many/most of them under age and drunk, looking to fight with anybody and everybody. It got so bad the local bus company diverted their buses around the town after a scaffolding pole was smashed through the windscreen aimed at the driver. The bus companies view was that they were doing it for their staff's safety and that of other passengers who were going further along the route.Trains can't be diverted like a bus.

[woodenhead]

I think forcing a guard into a situation of revenue protection on a late night or very early morning service is not a decision I would want to make. It's not just a problem for Northern, I was watching the Channel 5 GW Railway programme thief week and they were travelling with a guard on the 19:45 Padd-Swansea service which becomes a giant taxi to home going drunks and after Newport the guard is all alone on a HST.

 

I've noticed that Virgin have also stopped checking tickets at Euston piling pressure on its guards I expect.

['CHARD]

Much as most of us hate automated gate-lines (as do I), they are one of the best weapons (technology-based) that we have against ticketless travel.  We are never going to recruit - train - retain adequate numbers of guards and BTP officers to return to some sixties rail idyll.  

 

Society has sadly evolved into a place where we stare at pallisade fencing and rue feral travelling 'companions.'  I feel for ALL THOSE involved in the thankless front line job of keeping our creaking system going 364 days a year, regardless of their employer.

[The Stationmaster]

Regrettably, to on train staff, the BTP in England and Wales have been a bad joke for a very long time.

 

 

Are your opinions.

 

I won't be a mouthpiece for the BTP members on here, but from a personal perspective I don't share your experience, your sentiments, or your slander.

During my time on the big railway I knew quite a number of BTP officers from Constable right up to several Inspectors I had worked with over the years becoming Superintedents or Chief Superintendents and in one case rising to Asst Chief Constable.  Most of those who got promoted to that sort of level were very good (one wasn't as it happens) and throughout the force there were good and bad - on one occasion one even asked me to send for the police because he couldn't control a  bunch of drunken RN matelots (who I'd had little trouble with and who his colleague got under discipline within a couple of minutes).  So as in so many walks of life a mixture of really good and, occasionally, absolutely awful.

 

But whatever they were they couldn't be in 5 places at once and that was often where they were asked to be - since then their numbers have been reduced quite severely and many local offices either closed or reduced to (very) part time manning.  Even getting them out to really serious (i.e. ending in violence) cases of fare dodging was never easy - our 3 local ones at a station where I worked had a patch even bigger than mine, and the A303 cut it in half, try getting across that on a Saturday in the summer hols.

 

They can work very well on 'biggies' when they can get staff in, especially on pre-arranged jobs - but then of course they aren't anywhere else.   But if you want to call them to deal with a fare dodger, even back in BR days (when there were more of them) you'd be wasting your breath at many most smaller places.

[great central]

I think forcing a guard into a situation of revenue protection on a late night or very early morning service is not a decision I would want to make. It's not just a problem for Northern, I was watching the Channel 5 GW Railway programme thief week and they were travelling with a guard on the 19:45 Padd-Swansea service which becomes a giant taxi to home going drunks and after Newport the guard is all alone on a HST.

 

I've noticed that Virgin have also stopped checking tickets at Euston piling pressure on its guards I expect.

 

Thank you for that, one of my younger colleagues was attacked by a female with a stiletto heel a few weeks back because SHE missed HER stop. It would be surprising she could find her way home as she could barely stand up, not due to the missing shoe by the way