Depot signal or something else?

[AngryMeerkat]

I've found some pictures of Allerton depot and they have something I've not noticed before - a yellow bollard between the tracks about 4ft high with 2 white lights.....

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/dmc1947/5809396029/

 

What is this? Unfortunately I can't make out what the lights are facing or what the other sides of the bollard look like. All I can tell from pictures is that either 1 of the lights or both of the lights or none of the lights may be on.

 

If anybody could explain more about this - what it is, what it does, how, and where it's controlled from, as well as direct me to some more pictures I would be really grateful.

 

Thanks,

 

Mark

 

Another picture....

 

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[The Stationmaster]

Might be something to do with a DPS (Depot Protection System)?

[TheSignalEngineer]

Might be something to do with a DPS (Depot Protection System)?

Possibly. Quite a lot of buildings at depots got some form of light signals at that time. There were several variations including a bulkhead light on a notice board and a modified GPLS unit. They were usually worked from inside the building to tell the driver when it was safe to come in.

[AngryMeerkat]

Possibly. Quite a lot of buildings at depots got some form of light signals at that time. There were several variations including a bulkhead light on a notice board and a modified GPLS unit. They were usually worked from inside the building to tell the driver when it was safe to come in.

Doing some more looking at pictures, it would appear that the 2 lights are facing into the depot while on the other side facing away from the depot it says something like "trains stop here".

 

Thanks Mike for the direction towards DPS, although I can't find pictures that match Allerton the idea and position of the bollards would fit with some kind of DPS system.

 

As those pictures are from 80s would a DPS system be controlled from inside the depot even back then? The reason I ask is that back then Allerton signal box was in sight of the depot, and from memory and every picture I've seen I can't find any hand operated point levers so was wondering would all depot points and signals be controlled from the box?

 

Thanks,

 

Mark

[TheSignalEngineer]

They were to do with depot safety rather than running trains so would be controlled from inside the shed. 

[Guest Bob S]

Same thing at Longsight in earlier days. An older type of stop indicator to control entry into the District Electric Depot. (DED)

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/barkingbill/2127733138/in/photostream/

[dvdlcs]

Looking at the pictures wondered if they were some form of shunt signal, although whether controlled from the signal box or within the shed itself I couldn't say.

[The Stationmaster]

Looking at the pictures wondered if they were some form of shunt signal, although whether controlled from the signal box or within the shed itself I couldn't say.

No, definitely DPS - the Longsight one linked by BobS enlarges to show an arrow indicating the road it applies to and an illuminated word 'STOP' plus some smaller words I can't read.  Presumably the lights (or what appear to be lights) at the back are presumably tell tales to let the depot staff know the sign/signal is working correctly.

 

The obvious disadvantage of these signs (which more than anything else suggests they were nothing to do with the S&T Dept or the Operations Dept) is that they were very obviously not fail safe.  The later standard (or I presume it to be a standard without checking that) is to use ordinary position light signals which are illuminated to give the standard proceed aspect associated with such signals - and these are obviously fail safe as they show a specific proceed aspect.  As far as I know such installations have only ever been controlled from the workshop/building  etc to which they apply - for example Eurostar's NPI depot was fully signalled and operated from an NX panel in the main admin building but the DPS signals were all controlled locally by staff in the building to which they applied.

[kenw]

As far as control from a signalbox's concerned, this would generally end at the inlet / outlet signals with no involvement within a depot. Traditionally all points would be hand operated and movements made on sight. More modern times often have at least some power worked points and shunt signals, worked from a control panel within the depot, operators being apropriately trained depot operating staff, at Heaton this is a charge shunter.

 

Depot Protection Systems, again relatively modern, are protection for staff working on vehicles so are controlled by the maintenance staff. Don't think there's any standard for these, they're covered by local instructions. Heaton, recently renewed, uses single red and white bulkhead style lights.

 

Gateshead never had signals within the depot, or DPS - other than 'not to be moved' boards.

[dvdlcs]

Plain track too - think I'd want to have some derailers there as well as or instead of those 'signals'.

[dvdlcs]

Would turnout indicators be used in depots or yards in the UK instead of shunt signals? Essentially a white light for proceed, yellow if across the diverge, or red if the turnout is set against the path when approaching from the trailing side.

[keefer]

noticed from a passing train that Edinburgh haymarket depot has standard position light signals, inc. at least one mounted halfway up the adjoining wall (for entering shed at east end of depot)

another interesting sight is wheelsets/final drives/gearboxes/engines sat on the concrete outside the shed door!

[The Stationmaster]

Plain track too - think I'd want to have some derailers there as well as or instead of those 'signals'.

We had thus - or rather flip over wheel stops but the same idea - at a depot where i worked.  More time was spent replacing broken ones after the Shed Ferrymen had run over them than the Ferrymen ever spent lowering them!

 

Would turnout indicators be used in depots or yards in the UK instead of shunt signals? Essentially a white light for proceed, yellow if across the diverge, or red if the turnout is set against the path when approaching from the trailing side.

I can't really see the point of them.  When you trail through a traditional British handpoint you don't need to look at it (but you do need to look at those peculiar US things which EWS installed because they lock) and when you make a facing move someone needs to ensure the point is properly shut so it would mean detecting both switches and using signalling standard circuitry on what in many cases could be lightly used points - I think teh industry probably has better thinsg to spend its money on.

 

However centralised power control, complete with fixed signals, is - I think - advantageous in modern traction depots especially those dealing with multiple units as the very length of trains would start to impose a lot of walking on ground staff which chews up time.  In addition many modern depots of that type are designed for high throughput in a relatively short time which makes centralised control an economic proposition, and probably by far the best way to do the job.

[45125]

As they are on wired roads they may also have reference to the state of the overhead i.e. dead or live.

 

Al Taylor

[Banger Blue]

Reading Train Care Depot is fully signalled and all points and Ground Position Signals are controlled by the Train Movement Controllers from the Control Room up in the Train Shed.

 

 

One of the LED type Ground Position Signal

 

 

The Signals controlling entry / exit from the Shed are interlocked with the Depot Protection System and will not show a proceed aspect unless the TMC has set a route and the shed staff have operated the DPS.

One of them can be seen here above the DPS panel:

 

[kenw]

Would turnout indicators be used in depots or yards in the UK instead of shunt signals? Essentially a white light for proceed, yellow if across the diverge, or red if the turnout is set against the path when approaching from the trailing side.

Points Indicators are used in the York TransPennine depot. Basically a ground mounted 'theatre box' type route indicator displaying an arrow showing the direction the points are set. Again, a modern installation, the depot's purpose built for the 185's.

York loco depot (now NRM) was like Gateshead, with no internal signals, all points being hand points, and no Depot Protection System.

I believe Edinburgh Haymarket was the same when it too was a loco depot depot.

At Heaton which I mentioned earlier, it's mostly the Receptions, wash and Primary Departures with power points and shunt signals, the remainder being hand points and un-signaled, this dates from the mid 70's rebuild as an HST depot. The DPS I'd say's post-privatisation this does, btw, also have de-railers, which are worked automatically with the Protection.

[dvdlcs]

Thank you to both kenw and The Stationmaster for answering my questions. Mr Stationmaster in particular seems to make a habit of increasing my knowledge / exposing my ignorance :-)

 

The yards in the system I'm most familiar with is like Banger Blues post of Reading depot; full signalling and centrally operated turnouts and (almost) all tracks circuited.

 

The yard shunt signals - which I don't have a picture of to hand - are two-aspect LEDs; the upper is always a steady red and the lower is either flashing yellow for a through shunt (clear route to next signal) or steady yellow for a restricted shunt (no following signal i.e. a dead end, uncircuited track, or an occupation following the signal). If at the facing end of a turnout there is a LED TRI which will show the road that is set. The drivers are told which road they are heading for, so they can query if an indicator says something else, other than that it is "follow the lights".