Graeme Leary Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 I have relaid my layout and have a rather intricate situation with 2 curved points coming after a crossover, with the points being on a VERY slight downwards gradient. My locos (eg A1/3s; A4s; B1s; B17s; V1/3s; V2s; J83s and J11) all handled this new setup with no problems so the next stage was to attach a couple of Pullman coaches but these are derailing just after the crossover and on entering the first curved point (and this is with keeping the speed quite slow). My 'gut' feeling is that as the locos (somewhat heavier than the coaches) seem okay, the coaches are too light and any (even) slight unevenness on the track causes this derailing. Is this likely to be the situation and if 'yes' are there any suggestions how to remedy the problem. I did think of fixing weights (such as lead fishing weights) and would this be suitable. Otherwise are there any other suggestions that anyone may have. Many thanks. Graeme Leary (New Zealand) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kandc_au Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 Graeme, The first thing I would be doing is looking at the coach wheels and the back to back measurments! If the loco's all go through Ok I wouldn't be thinking of track uneveness immediately. Khris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dick rowland Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 Are the Pullmans Hornby, manufactured around fourteen years ago? My early 'Bournemouth Belle' set nearly drove me nuts, derailing on virtually everything apart from straight track. Basically, every time the bogies attempted to re-centre after passing through a point one or more of the coaches derailed. It is a known bogie self-centering design problem on the early Chinese-production Pullmans. I contacted Hornby. They acknowledged the problem, advised me to return the coaches to them, They replaced the whole underframe free of charge and returned a perfect 'Bournemouth Belle' set to me. The only modification I've done since is fit Roco short couplings (My coaches did not have NEM sockets). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
YK 50A Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 Hi Graeme, I am in total agreement with the above 2 posts and was going to suggest checking the back to backs myself. The gauges (a lump of brass with a groove for the axle and sometimes a handle) should be readily available in NZ as the correct ones are frequently marketed as HO/OO. Further, seeing the last post reminded me that I read about the issue with early Chinese Hornby Pullmans on here before. The question I have is which curved points are you using? I had a design which used a not too complex ladder of setrack curved points to open out into the station from a hidden throat. Try as I might, it was impossible to get them to work reliably with all stock. They just aren't designed to fulfil more than a simple crossover, constantly and suddenly changing radii. The preceding crossover might the straw that broke the camel's back. It shouldn't be an issue with streamline points. Alun Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Brit70053 Posted September 6, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 6, 2014 A friend had a similar problem with 'first issue' Pullman coaches (with lighting). After endless frustration he contacted Hornby who supplied him, free of charge, with sufficient new coach bogies to refurbish his Pullman stock. A bit fiddly to do because of the wiring for the lighting, but worthwhile because it totally resolved the derailment problem. I'd suggest contacting Hornby in the first instance, but if the no longer carry these bogies as spares, perhaps someone like Peters Spares (Usual disclaimer, No commercial connection etc) may be able to help you. Good luck with getting this sorted. Regards, John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Tomlinson Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 Another possiblity, if they are Bachmann products, is that that spring connector to the coupling, which attaches to the chassis above the bogie, is fouling the bogie as the track drops, ie at the start of the slope when the bogie tilts relative to the chassis. This happened for sure with Bachmann's non Pullman Mk1's (how do I know this!), and I presume their Pullman Mk1's have a similar arrangement. I don't have a simple solution if this is the problem - all my Mk1's have kadees fitted to the chassis as they should be per prototype - which works a treat but is a reasonable amount of work. John. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 ... My 'gut' feeling is that as the locos (somewhat heavier than the coaches) seem okay, the coaches are too light and any (even) slight unevenness on the track causes this derailing. Is this likely to be the situation... Not primarily to do with the weight of the coaches: the length is what counts most. These are the longest vehicles you have tried so far on this formation and the combination of a curve on a gradient, with the added complication of these curves being part of points is at the root cause of the trouble. It would be helpful to know what points, and exactly what Pullmans. If the coaches are as others here have guessed the Bach or Hornby types with close coupling mechanisms, be prepared to observe closely and adjust to give the bogies enough freedom in all axes, and for the coupler system to operate smoothly. My gut feeling: if this formation is from set track points combined with the Hornby or Bachmann lit Pullmans, I think you stand very little chance of reliable operation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graeme Leary Posted September 6, 2014 Author Share Posted September 6, 2014 Very many thanks to you all for your help. Between you all, you have, I think, 'cracked' the issue as my 6 Pullmans are indeed the problem models you've identified. There are 6 of them, all Hornby WITH lighting including such coaches with names/numbers (without listing the full description on the Hornby boxes) as - 'Aurelia'; 'Leona'; 'Minerva' ; 'Car 65 3rd Class' (2 of these) and 'Car. No. 171 - Third Class'. (One thing I had noticed with all 6 since buying them over the past 3 or 4 years is that there seems to be very little 'swivel' in the bogies and they seem to be 'sprung' so they go back into the fore/aft position rather than remain quite 'loose' as other coaches I have do (not the best way to describe this I know). However as I hadn't been running them extensively it is only now that this issue has reared its ugly head again! Also, my first posting was incorrect as I had forgotten I had replaced one of the curved points mentioned with a Peco Streamline 'Straight' (Medium radius) leaving just one Hornby Curved point (and the crossover is also a Peco) with the Hornby curved point now being just about 'flat' ie off the gradient where the straight Peco is, but this is also on a fairly minimal gradient. I know from general chats with other modellers here in the colonies that a combination of curved points AND gradients is a recipe for disaster which is what I was having until the fairly extensive 'relaying' mentioned in the first post. However, I think the problem can be sheeted home to the problems with the bogies on the Hornby Pullmans, rather than the track. So, now to investigate the various remedies suggested for the coaches (and bogies in particular). Again,very many thanks. Graeme Leary Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
70E Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 Just tagging onto this thread, I am currently encountering problems with my rake of six matchboard Pullmans fitted with the later NEM coupling. Level track West Country loco slips, slides and then stalls on a curve. Is it the weight of the rake? I had to dismantle Bachmann MK1's to remove the weights, don't really want to dismantle the Pullmans if in fact they do have weights?? The individual coaches are free running , but I will check the back to backs n the meantime. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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