Blue 31's with central double arrow logo.

[Swindon 123]

Hello all,

It seems that class 31s where a bit slow in receiving the "Corporate Blue" livery with central double arrow logo than other classes. Having done a bit of research into 31 liveries I cannot find a blue one with a central positioned double arrow logo until late 1971 at the earliest. Up until then it appears they where still appearing with 2 arrows on the cabsides.

My question is does anyone know the numbers of the first ones to appear with central double arrow logos and dates they came out of works. Logic dictates that for completeness which where the last ones to appear with the 2 arrows on the cabsides.

 

looking forward to a full reply list.

 

Paul J.

[DaveF]

Hello all,

It seems that class 31s where a bit slow in receiving the "Corporate Blue" livery with central double arrow logo than other classes. Having done a bit of research into 31 liveries I cannot find a blue one with a central positioned double arrow logo until late 1971 at the earliest. Up until then it appears they where still appearing with 2 arrows on the cabsides.

My question is does anyone know the numbers of the first ones to appear with central double arrow logos and dates they came out of works. Logic dictates that for completeness which where the last ones to appear with the 2 arrows on the cabsides.

 

looking forward to a full reply list.

 

Paul J.

 

Paul,

 

I don't have a list as such but can offer a few photos showing the earliest ones Dad and I came across.

 

The first one is dated November 1970, I have gone back to both Dad's and my notes and the date is correct.

 

Dry Doddington Class 31s 5672 and 5675 High Dyke to Scunthorpe iron ore Nov 70 C415

I think the second loco is 5675, it is just possible that it was 5673, but that is less likely - I can hardly read my own writing in my notes .  Dad's notes say 5675.

 

 

Swayfield Class 31 5601 down empty sleepers and mail April 72 C868

 

 

Boston Class 31 5579 April 1972 C914

 

 

Skillington Junction Class 31 possibly 5676 up iron ore June 72 C0990

 

 

Skillington junction Class 31 5673 up iron ore July 72 C1023

 

 

Hope they are some use.

David

Edited September 19, 2014 by DaveF

[Swindon 123]

Paul,

 

I don't have a list as such but can offer a few photos showing the earliest ones Dad and I came across.

 

The first one is dated November 1970, I have gone back to both Dad's and my notes and the date is correct.

 

j Dry Doddington Class 31s 5672 and 5675 High Dyke to Scunthorpe iron ore Nov 70 C415.jpg

Dry Doddington Class 31s 5672 and 5675 High Dyke to Scunthorpe iron ore Nov 70 C415

I think the second loco is 5675, it is just possible that it was 5673, but that is less likely - I can hardly read my own writing in my notes .  Dad's notes say 5675.

 

 

Swayfield Class 31 5601 down empty sleepers and mail April 72 C868.jpg

Swayfield Class 31 5601 down empty sleepers and mail April 72 C868

 

 

Boston Class 31 5579 April 1972 C914.jpg

Boston Class 31 5579 April 1972 C914

 

 

f Skillington Junction Class 31 possibly 5676 up iron ore June 72 C0990.jpg

Skillington Junction Class 31 possibly 5676 up iron ore June 72 C0990

 

 

i Skillington junction Class 31 5673 up iron ore July 72 C1023.jpg

Skillington junction Class 31 5673 up iron ore July 72 C1023

 

 

Hope they are some use.

David

Thanks for posting the photos David, and more importantly confirming the dates. 5675 is the earliest one I've come across in that livery so far.

I've found two others that appear to have been painted that way that I feel certain the dates a accurate. 5581 ex works at Doncaster in August 71, and just a little earlier 5622 at Cambridge ex works 23/05/71, and possibly 5590, shot dated April 72. These three had been dual braked as long back as 1968 and so where maybe due a works visit. Another of the locos, 5601 I have another shot of, dated 1971?? but your shot looks as though it has been out of works a while, and as it was another 1968 duel braked loco this may also be an early one. Your shot of 5579 is quite clean and not all that long out of works and I have another shot of this one at Norwich c1971 so that may be another early one. This was one 31 that didn't receive air brakes until the 1980's. Others like this, or remaining Vac only for the whole of their lives, that, according to the photos I've found received central arrows in 1971/early 1972 are 5554, 5682, only ever VB, 5667, 5688 duel braked in the 1980's.

 

If anyone can confirm, backup, or shoot down any of my observations I would be grateful for any corrections. 

 

Paul J.

 

(Edited so as not to inflame road raged drivers)

Edited September 23, 2014 by Swindon 123

[Titan]

These three had been duel braked

 So they could haul rusty tankers marked "flammable" with a road raged driver at the controls?

Edited September 23, 2014 by Titan

[stovepipe]

I'm not 100% sure it is 5675 based on another of David's photos taken in April 1972

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidwf2009/5639729553

 

I think it more likely it's 5673. Whichever one it is, it is a unique, or at least very rare, combination of numbers and logos - 2 bodyside numbers combined with central bodyside arrow. The final corporate styles were central arrow, with numbers on the both cabsides and then finally on the left hand cabside only.

Edited September 23, 2014 by stovepipe

[DaveF]

I'm not 100% sure it is 5675 based on another of David's photos taken in April 1972

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidwf2009/5639729553

 

I think it more likely it's 5673. Whichever one it is, it is a unique, or at least very rare, combination of numbers and logos - 2 bodyside numbers combined with central bodyside arrow. The final corporate styles were central arrow, with numbers on the both cabsides and then finally on the left hand cabside only.

 

As I said, I'm not sure.  It could as easily be 5673 as 5675.  Dad and I generally wrote down the number down just after the photo was taken (if at all), almost as an afterthought.

 

David

[Swindon 123]

There seems to be a bit of an enigma with 5675. It is shown as being dual braked in 1971 and another of David's photos, (https://flic.kr/p/9rnmZ3), dated Nov 71 shows it looking a bit travel worn with a single arrow, possibly ex works from Doncaster early in 1971. That would put a question mark on the first photo being of 5675. However I doubt it is 5673 as the shot of 5673 dated July 72, looks quite clean as though it hasn't been long out of works. It could well have appeared in 1971 but late on in the year. The Nov 70 shot clearly shows 5672 so rules that loco out. 5671 had cabside arrows, 5674 retained green until 72 at least. That leaves 5676. So far I haven't found a photo of that loco so don't know what livery it was in. As it wasn't dual braked until the 1980's I can't go by its DB date. However as other examples around that number range that where dual braked in the 1980's or even remained vac brakes till withdrawn, where receiving single arrows on blue around that time, it is possible it may be 5676. Only a photo of 5676 will prove it either way.

 

Paul J.

[stovepipe]

I could only find this one https://www.flickr.com/photos/paulbrysn/6819252771/

 

Is this another early centre body arrow example?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/d210bob/14825053755/in/pool-1690412@N24

Date might be suspect.

Edited September 24, 2014 by stovepipe

[SRman]

Not all that long ago I was scouring my books and the web for the opposite to the OP; I wanted to find a blue 31, pre-TOPS with the four arrows, with or without 'D' prefixes. I also required it to be a 'skinhead'. For this, I noted all of the combinations I found for that pre-TOPS period (ignoring anything with TOPS numbering), together with the dates of the photos if given. Variations include the earlier and rail alphabet typefaces as well.

 

I cannot find my notes at the moment but if I do, I'll post them here.

I was renumbering a detailed Lima 31 004 "toffee apple" fitted with a Hornby RailRoad chassis, but wanted a blue star version to make it a little more versatile, hence the research.

Edited September 24, 2014 by SRman

[Swindon 123]

I could only find this one https://www.flickr.com/photos/paulbrysn/6819252771/

 

Is this another early centre body arrow example?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/d210bob/14825053755/in/pool-1690412@N24

Date might be suspect.

Interesting shot of 5676. The weathering on the loco gives the impression it has been out of works some time. May be a 1971 repaint but more likely 72.

 

With regards to the shots of 5560 I would definitely suspect the dates. Brush Veteran of this site has a couple of photos of it still in green in April/July 1970. It does look tatty though so may have gone into works in 71 for a repaint. The dates on the photos may be suspect but it may still be an early one. 

 

Have found a one more possible. First 5670, (https://flic.kr/p/boAu7z) in Aug 73 looking a bit tatty. This one was dual braked in 1971 so the paint job probably dates from then.

 

Paul J.

[Russell Saxton]

I'm not 100% sure it is 5675 based on another of David's photos taken in April 1972

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidwf2009/5639729553

 

I think it more likely it's 5673. Whichever one it is, it is a unique, or at least very rare, combination of numbers and logos - 2 bodyside numbers combined with central bodyside arrow. The final corporate styles were central arrow, with numbers on the both cabsides and then finally on the left hand cabside only.

  I'm unsure what you mean, the numbers are cabside not bodyside. 

[Russell Saxton]

Sorry, being thick. If that shot is 5676 then it is unique and i suspect a depot lash up.  As far as my records go, 31s were done with cabside arrows and bodyside numbers up till approx spring 1971, thereafter with a central arrow as we know. A few remained in the early style after TOPS numbering, nos 31115/40/46, 31251/6/8/9 at least and I'm sure there were a few more. 

 

Not much variety on Rail Blue but green was diverse with Green plain ends, GSYP lion, GSYP arrow, GFYE lion and arrow and 5557/61 had GFYE with cabside arrows and bodyside numbers. Both serif and asymmetrical numbers were in use.

Edited December 24, 2014 by Russell Saxton

[Phil Bullock]

Not all that long ago I was scouring my books and the web for the opposite to the OP; I wanted to find a blue 31, pre-TOPS with the four arrows, with or without 'D' prefixes. I also required it to be a 'skinhead'. For this, I noted all of the combinations I found for that pre-TOPS period (ignoring anything with TOPS numbering), together with the dates of the photos if given. Variations include the earlier and rail alphabet typefaces as well.

 

I cannot find my notes at the moment but if I do, I'll post them here.

 

I was renumbering a detailed Lima 31 004 "toffee apple" fitted with a Hornby RailRoad chassis, but wanted a blue star version to make it a little more versatile, hence the research.

Assume 5528 was on the list?

 

Did you finish that one? Heres my efforts so far with 5528 using a Hornby 31/0. Is the Lima shell a later version with engine room door and correct zorsts?

 

Chttp://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/11898-Hornby-class-31-modifications/page-3

 

Cheers

 

Phil

Edited December 24, 2014 by Phil Bullock

[Russell Saxton]

5547 was another. Most 31/0s were like it.

[Swindon 123]

I'm not 100% sure it is 5675 based on another of David's photos taken in April 1972

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidwf2009/5639729553

 

I think it more likely it's 5673. Whichever one it is, it is a unique, or at least very rare, combination of numbers and logos - 2 bodyside numbers combined with central bodyside arrow. The final corporate styles were central arrow, with numbers on the both cabsides and then finally on the left hand cabside only.

 

 

I'm unsure what you mean, the numbers are cabside not bodyside.

 

 

Sorry, being thick. If that shot is 5676 then it is unique and i suspect a depot lash up.  As far as my records go, 31s were done with cabside arrows and bodyside numbers up till approx spring 1971, thereafter with a central arrow as we know. A few remained in the early style after TOPS numbering, nos 31115/40/46, 31251/6/8/9 at least and I'm sure there were a few more. 

 

Not much variety on Rail Blue but green was diverse with Green plain ends, GSYP lion, GSYP arrow, GFYE lion and arrow and 5557/61 had GFYE with cabside arrows and bodyside numbers. Both serif and asymmetrical numbers were in use.

Initially when I read these posts I didn't understand what the fuss as about. Now having spent the last hour I at last understand what the excitement was about. The second loco in the first photo of DaveF's post is the only one I've seen (so far) with bodyside numbers with a central arrow. It is from the D5671-76 number range as it has a tablet catcher. The following can be ruled out if the date is correct. 5671 appears in other photos at a later date still with cabside arrows. 5672 is the other loco in the photo, 5673 appears in another of DaveF's photos looking very ex works in blue in 1973. It had been dual braked in 1969 and may have gone into early blue. I haven't found any photos of it pre 1973 to prove if it was blue or retained green. 5674 was green until going blue sometime in late 72/early 73. Of the others 5675 as in DaveF's original caption may be correct. It was dual braked in 1971 and so was in the transition from the 2 x arrows to the single central arrow. DaveF's captions up till now have been pretty accurate and as in the photo the central arrow on the 2nd loco looks smaller than that usually applied for that livery it could be a works job using old stocks or misinterpreting the instructions and subsequently altered. 5676 is a bit of a mystery as photos of it are scarce. I haven't as yet found one of it in blue

All the above is a bit of a guess and there is a lot of info still missing, especially 5676 which was not dual braked until blue was king and so is a definite possibility. I personally think that DaveF's original caption is correct. the last number does look like a 5.

 

The above are my own thoughts and I look forward to seeing any proof confirming or shooting down my theory.

 

Paul J.

 

Edited to correct number transposition.

Edited January 2, 2015 by Swindon 123

[david ellis]

5676 in blue, August 1973

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/paulbrysn/6819252771/in/photolist-boAsgD-d2Wvu9

[Swindon 123]

5676 in blue, August 1973

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/paulbrysn/6819252771/in/photolist-boAsgD-d2Wvu9

 

I found that photo not long after my earlier posting. Don't know when it went to blue, although it is after mid 71 as its a central arrow livery. DB date is after 1974, (if ever) so that can't give a clue as to when it might have gone blue. It's a possibility that it is the oddity in the photo but my moneys still on 5675.

 

Paul J.

[BrushVeteran]

 

I took this picture of 5581 at Doncaster in August 71, this appears to be one of my earliest images of this livery variation although it isn't a brilliant shot......but then nor was the Doncaster weather!

[Swindon 123]

A few remained in the early style after TOPS numbering, nos 31115/40/46, 31251/6/8/9 at least and I'm sure there were a few more.

I can now add a couple more to the cabside arrows with TOPS number list from photos I've come across.

 

31147 and possibly 31321, (but not found any photos of 321 yet).

31224. this has the strange combination of numbers under the Drivers cab window but arrows under the secondmans cab window. The data panel, on the one side at least, was under the original Pre TOPS number, alongside the lowest bodyside step up to the boiler water tank roof hatch. A good photo can be found here. https://flic.kr/p/no43Tw

 

Paul J.

[GERARDTCC]

Regarding the change from cabside arrows to central bodyside arrows this occurred in Spring 1971. The nearest I can pinpoint it is by ex works dates. 5650 (31224) was repainted in B1 (my designation) meaning cabside arrows and numbers on bodyside on 17th April 1971. The first known in B2 (central emblem and cabside numbers) is 5835 (31302) which is famous for other reasons but came out of Doncaster on 21st April 1971.

This may give the impression that 5650 was the last to enter works for a classified repair and emerge in B1 livery, but this is not the case as a few locomotives received a refresh, rather than a repaint after this date on classifieds until the end of 1971. Examples are 5531, 5544 and 5550. The last two to re-emerge in B1 rather than receive a repaint into B2 were 5659 in October 71 and 5646 (later 31408) on 31/12/71. 

5646 was also the last Class 31 to receive B2 on 30/12/75. Hope all that makes sense.

 

Moving on to the tablet catcher loco with uncertain ID in David's picture, it is indeed 5675 as he noted. 5675 had this modified paint scheme applied during an unclassified repair which saw it released from Doncaster on 21/10/70. It only ran in this condition for a short time as it went in for a classified repair on 15/4/71, being released in B2 (see above) on 13/5/71. The Doncaster paintshop records for 1970 would be interesting to see, as far fewer Class 31 repaints were done that year than any other from 1964 onwards. It was also the year that 5557 & 5561 were released in green in the style of B1 locos.