What WW1 Loco/Tractor is This?

[Chris hndrsn]

I was looking at the NZ National library site and found this image

 

New Zealand soldiers on a light rail train, France. Royal New Zealand Returned and Services' Association :New Zealand official negatives, World War 1914-1918. Ref: 1/2-013136-G. Alexander Turnbull Library, Wellington, New Zealand.http://natlib.govt.nz/records/23045907

 

I believe it is on metre gauge track as it looks too wide for the 60cm and the wheelbase seems too long.

 

Can anyone tell me what locomotive/tractor it is?

 

 

Cheers,

Chris

[Fat Controller]

To narrow the field a little, the style and typeface of the numbering seems very Belgian to me. Can anyone make out the lettering on either the shed plate or the builder's plate? As for gauge; it might even be standard gauge..

[cornelius]

Looks like it could be a Société Alsacienne de Constructions Mécaniques works plate. Not sure beyond that though.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/camperdown/8518418725/

[Londontram]

I blew it up to 500% but its still not clear enough to read though I would Agree it dosen't look like English writing

[EddieB]

I think its SACM 4201/1890, a metre gauge 0-6-2T built for the Chemins de fer Economiques, numbered 3.561.  My copy of the SACM builder's list does not show the number as formatted (just as "3561"), nor gives what appears to the the name carried ("AMIENS"?); but I imagine that I can just make out the number "4201" on the builder's plate.

 

I'll try to find some more information when I can.

[cornelius]

I'd agree the nameplate looks like "AMIENS". There's a free high resolution download from the NZ national library site but I haven't gone through the hoops of registering to get it. http://natlib.govt.nz/records/23045907

[Pacific231G]

I'd agree the nameplate looks like "AMIENS". There's a free high resolution download from the NZ national library site but I haven't gone through the hoops of registering to get it. http://natlib.govt.nz/records/23045907

Hoops, What hoops?If you click on  "see original record" and then "view archived copy online" you'll get to a version you can zoom in on and view in detail

credit "Royal New Zealand Returned and Services' Association Collection, Alexander Turnbull Library, Wellington, New Zealand"

 

I did go in a bit tighter than this and the builder's plate is definitely SACM Belfort and the number is 4201. The date looks like 1899 but could be 1889. 

 

 

The 3.561 number both in numbering system and typeface for a stencilled number is typically Nord with the 3 indicating a  6 coupled loco but the Nord's 3.561 was a  de Bousquet compound 4-6-0 of th same class as the one that once ran on the Nene Valley and is now preserved by AJECTA at Longueville. This loco is hardly one of those and I think the plate confirms it as the loco that Eddie suggests.

 

3.561 was the first of an order of ten 031T (0-6-2 tank) metre gauge locos (following an earlier 7)  buit by SACM between 1890-1893 for the   Société générale des chemins de fer économiques  (S.E.)   who had the concession for the Chemins de fer départementaux de la Somme.  One of these lines ran from Amiens to Aumale so naming one of the locos Amiens would make sense but probably wouldn't  be in the maker's listing.  The S.E.'s empire in the Somme departement also included the thankfully still with us CF du Baie de Somme

[EddieB]

Thanks David, the higher resolution version establishes the identification as SG des Chemins de fer Economiques (SE) 0-6-2T 3.561.  The date on the builder's plate must be 1889.  Details of this locomotive's history appear quite sketchy - it was used during the Somme campaign, but I'm unable to find what became of it afterwards.  Likewise tracking down photographs of it, or sister locomotives from the same batch, is proving difficult - it seems that these lines were little documented and war photographers concentrated on standard gauge or 60cm gauge field railways.

 

Similar SE 0-6-2Ts built by SACM were later transferred to Reseau Breton (where 3.558-3.560 became E301-E303) and Le Blanc - Argent (3.504-3.505 became PO 42-43). The RB examples were all withdrawn in 1954.  However an excellent photo of E301, taken in 1955, appears in Gordon Gravett's "Reseau Breton" book and shows the similarities with the locomotive in the NZ library photograph.

 

I see that a certain indefatigable Aussie chronicler of French locomotive history has produced a SG des Chemins de fer Economiques locomotive list (private circulation), which may give locomotive names.  I'll try to get sight or borrow a copy.

[Pacific231G]

I've done a little more delving and the S.E. did adopt the same numbering method as the Nord (and some other French railways) where the first digit indicated the number of driven axles. It was a bit variable whether this first digit was separated from the rest of the number by a dot, space or, more often than not, not at all. In theory on the SE  the first digit after the axle number indicated the class followed by the number in that class but the company seems to have interpreted the idea of a class very widely. Since the vast majority of steam locos on the S.E.'s various metre and standard gauge networks were six coupled tank locos, almost all had numbers starting with a 3  though they did have some 0-2-2-0 Mallets whose numbers started with a 4 and a few four coupled locos starting with a 2. I've not found any eight coupled locos on any of its networks

 

The S.E. was also in the habit of naming its locos. These were generally with the names of towns on the lines they worked suggesting that this loco had worked on the Amiens-Aumale-Enverneu line though Louvencourt, where the photo is recorded as having been taken, is about 25kms North East of Amiens and was on the S.E. Somme's Group d'Albert between Albert and Doullens.

 

During the first World War, Louvencourt was about 10kms behind the front and the location of field ambulances (so there is a small Commonwealth War Graves Cemetery in the village) until the Somme offensive of 1916  when the front went further east. The field ambulances returned after the German advance in the spring of 1918 and it makes sense that the railway would have been used to evacuate casualties.

 

I've found this postcard of a loco of the same type on the S.E.s Reseau du Centre in Cher hauling a not very profitable mixed train

and a rather faint drawing of the type

[Chris hndrsn]

Gentleman,

 

Well done! I thought it may interest a few of you.

 

 

Cheers,

Chris

[EddieB]

I've now had sight of the SE loco list compiled by John Davies (see my earlier post) and discovered that he also co-authored an article "Les Économiques ont des vapeur" with Jean-Pierre Vergez-Larrouy which appeared in edition no 4 of the magazine "Correspondances" [Revue d'Histoire Ferroviaire] (pp 54-63). 

 

As has been mentioned, 3.561 was the first (numerically, but not to be built) of a batch of ten 0-6-2 tanks from SACM, of which three (3.561-3) were built at Graffenstaden, the rest at Belfort   All were originally allocated to the Somme network. The name of 3.561 is given as "BEAUVAL" or "AMIENS", which might suggest it was renamed prior to the photograph.  A further illustration of the entire loco accompanies the aforementioned article (too indistinct in the copy I've seen to make out details).

[Pacific231G]

I've now had sight of the SE loco list compiled by John Davies (see my earlier post) and discovered that he also co-authored an article "Les Économiques ont des vapeur" with Jean-Pierre Vergez-Larrouy which appeared in edition no 4 of the magazine "Correspondances" [Revue d'Histoire Ferroviaire] (pp 54-63). 

 

As has been mentioned, 3.561 was the first (numerically, but not to be built) of a batch of ten 0-6-2 tanks from SACM, of which three (3.561-3) were built at Graffenstaden, the rest at Belfort   All were originally allocated to the Somme network. The name of 3.561 is given as "BEAUVAL" or "AMIENS", which might suggest it was renamed prior to the photograph.  A further illustration of the entire loco accompanies the aforementioned article (too indistinct in the copy I've seen to make out details).

The WW1 photo probably answers the name being Amiens and not Beauval unless it stayed on the Albert reseau where it was photographed in 1918 after the war but that was, according to the article, unusual.

 

I've got a complete run of Correspondances so am looking at the article now and the details are reasonably clear. 3.561 does look rather different than in the WW1 picture but the photo is copyright so I can't include it here. The photo, taken in the late 1940s-1950s, is from the other side of the loco but the number is clear. The centre window has been replaced with a metal plate, the rodding along the top of the boiler between the cab and the domes is different and the cab has been enclosed - in the WW1 picture it's open with a canvas sheet covering the back. The number is in the same typeface and position but the name and maker's plates have gone. The Societé Economique owner's plate roughly in the centre of the side tank is in place. There are also rather fewer rivets than in the earlier photo but that may just reflect what's on each side of the cab.

In the article the sister loco 3.517, taken by the same photographer in 1947 working on the SE Centre in Cher, looks a lot closer to 3.561's original condition but that was never close to the front in WW1 and who knows what damage or depredations the loco suffered between 1918 and say 1948.

[EddieB]

I've a few copies of "Correspondances", which I don't think include these early issues (I need to check!).  While on the subject of the SE, John Davies wrote an article for the first issue (May/June 2002") entitled "Les “économiques“, enfants de la IIIe République" - l’aventure des petits trains de la Société générale des chemins de fer économiques.  Being a bi-monthly magazine issue no. 4 is dated December 2002-January 2003.

 

Whilst the photo of 3.651 was taken by the same photographer who took the one of 3.517 at Cher in 1946 (in the same issue), I would think that the latest date would have been in the mid to late 'forties.  The locomotives that survived (in some cases derelict) into the 'fifties appear to be documented, but the fates of most (including 3.651) are unrecorded.