Oxfordrail - Adams Radial

[Ozexpatriate]

And I wonder if wishlists might well have contributed to this state of affairs as folk with little else in the way of background or knowledge, and possibly even limited direct contact with modellers, simply cherry pick high scorers off wishlists?

Be careful what you wish for perhaps?

 

The wishlist poll is indeed 'free' market research. Or is that 'free market' research?

Edited October 14, 2014 by Ozexpatriate

[Ozexpatriate]

In some sectors people from various companies do talk to each other and even have regular meetings.

How do you think European standards are written? They do not just happen by accident, there is a heck of a lot of the big boys looking after themselves.

Yes international standards do happen by committee but that doesn't address duplication.

 

1:76 scale with a 16.5mm gauge is an example of the kind of things that result when developing a "standard" by committee, (even if it didn't in this instance).

 

Are you suggesting that everyone lobby their MP for the establishment of a quasi-autonomous governmental organization called "The British Model Railways Board" to determine by lottery or open bidding to see who gets to model what prototypes?  (I can tell you their first appointment would be a chairman and it would be Frank Martin.)

 

Perhaps the lottery could be televised using a bingo wheel?

 

Or are you suggesting that the manufacturers form a cartel?  The "Organization of British Outline Model Railway Producers" or some such thing where they rotate meetings in cigar filled, wood panelled rooms in office spaces at Paddington, Waterloo, Euston and and Kings Cross, complete with voting members and non-voting members (the commissioning interests). (l'll lay down the gauntlet for someone to come up with a funny acronym.) 

Edited October 14, 2014 by Ozexpatriate

[The Stationmaster]

There surely must be a way forward akin to this, because whilst four manufacturers are spending money on an identical prototype, three other prototypes are being ignored, which is detrimental to their profits and the hobby as a whole I would have thought... 

 

 

David

Some of them do talk among themselves but many don't.  Someone on here - for a variety of reasons - might happen to have an idea of what is going on but I doubt if anyone has a complete picture.  However we do come to a big problem in all of this which might be difficult to resolve and that is if a manufacturer 'bags' a, say Big Bertha or Midland Spinner or Class XX and then doesn't do anything about it for whatever reason.  

 

Some folk give us information on how projects are progressing, even if they are taking a long time from date of original announcement, but equally some shove something in their catalogue - in some cases several years in succession and then say (and seemingly do) nothing - thus queering the pitch for anyone else.

 

Equally some get on and make what they said they were going to make but produce something which falls far short of what the market wants on either accuracy or (and/or) value for money grounds - but they 'bagged it' so now we all lose;  the folk who would have made a good one pulled out because they were told the other lot were well ahead, or nobody else dared touch it because they were afraid of a divided market and not hitting sales targets.

 

Some companies can move quickly and all that holds them back is fitting things into their business plan and cash flow situation.  Others move slowly but get their in the end - for all sorts of reasons, and some are running from hand-to-mouth financially and sort of bounce along in a poorly organised shambles.  What happens if one of the latter goes bust - is their future list divvied up between the rest?  How does a new concern get in on the act? What happens if the firm you place your commissions with just sits on them and doesn't get on with the job and your whole business plan slips?

 

I'm not saying a few nods & winks are not necessarily a bad idea but apart from the questionnable legality there are some thorny patches.  So an alternative is perhaps the annually released 'two year' forecast from a manufacturer.  Could be interesting, could cause frothing, might stamp out some wishlisting - all of that doesn't really matter, what really matters is the statement of 'keep of my grass, I'm working on that one and it's in my queue'  (only problem is that there would then be perpetual shrieks of 'where is it', all from the folk who haven't got to plan the investment or run a business).

[Cantongoat]

It would be nice if it is actually die cast, or at least partly. A sort of updated Wrenn range made from metal with a quality feel, rather than the flimsy (albeit 'super-detailed') plasticy offerings we have at the moment that have bits that jump off as soon as you put them on the track.

Given that OO Gauge looks faintly ridiculous on narrow gauge HO track, does it really need to be that detailed given that one of the most basic dimensions is terminally flawed.

I'd certainly be in the market for less detailed but more usable OO items made out of sturdy metal, provided that they 'look' alright from normal viewing distance. It seems that most of todays railway models are made for static photographical use rather than actually playing with the things.

 

I might be in the minority on this

Edited October 14, 2014 by Cantongoat

[phil gollin]

.

 

..................  And I wonder if wishlists might well have contributed to this state of affairs as folk with little else in the way of background or knowledge, and possibly even limited direct contact with modellers, simply cherry pick high scorers off wishlists?

.

 

 

The Adams Radials have been high on peoples desires, magazine letter pages and various wishlists for ages (decades)  -  no one has been unaware of their charisma.  They are both "cute" and elegant (and for the cost conscious "small").

 

What I think has changed is that small manufacturers (such as "OO Works") and retailer commissions have demonstrated that the major R-T-R manufacturers can be out manouevered.   

 

Having said that as a Southern Region modeller I have been really pleased with the 2-EPB, C-Class, 700 class and forthcoming E-4,  these are "workhorses" which may not be glamorous, but were often found in the background of photos of the more famous engines. I have "rewarded" the manufacturers by orders for several each of these workhorses, but is that enough ?

 

Now, based on the last few years "wishlist" results I expect the S-15 4-6-0 to be high up and that is another of those essential workhorses, BUT, if I were a R-T-R manufacturer would I produce that, or go for a high-ranking "glamour" class ? 

 

Despite my desire for the workhorse S-15 I know that, if produced, I will buy one each of the accurate last three Adams no matter that they would only have appeared on my theoretical layout as one-off visitors whereas the S-15 would be clanking around all the time. 

 

"Workhorse" versus "glamour"  -  that is the real problem for the R-T-R manufacturers, and I certainly don't know the answer.  

 

------------

 

P.S.  I agree with the rest of your post, and IF it sets out the true situation, I will be waiting for the manufacturer who intends to produce accurate representations of the last three examples  -  but I have been waiting for an Adams Radial since I saw a picture of one in the back of a Triang-Wrenn catalogue in the 70s, so a few more months won't worry me !

 

.

[Dunsignalling]

Lyme Regis..........the NEW BLT!

To be fair, the Lyme Regis Radials were the last survivors of a larger class. Pre-1930, they were quite widespread.

 

Also, even in their latter days, they weren't entirely restricted to that branch. There's a published photo of two of them working a weed-killing train over the Seaton branch and it seems reasonable to assume they probably did the Sidmouth and Exmouth lines too.

 

I also remember going from Axminster to Exeter on an early-afternoon stopper on Saturdays worked by the engine/coaches returning to Exeter for some TLC after a week on the branch. By that time it was a Midland tank (Ivatt) but I imagine the practice was long established.

 

John  

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

..."Workhorse" versus "glamour"  -  that is the real problem for the R-T-R manufacturers, and I certainly don't know the answer...

There's a further problem, for those of us who like being able to buy 'good kitbuild quality' rolling stock to enable a fairly extensive operation to be modelled without having to build and finish hundreds of vehicles from kits.

 

As Dave Jones has candidly admitted, he's only working on locos, because that's where the best returns are to be obtained. Other than Bach and Hornby, look at all the other active RTR OO suppliers and commissioners proposed new introductions.

Heljan, locos

Dapol, locos (have they got any more wagon introductions listed, I don't know?)

Rapido, MU

DJM, locos

Hattons, locos

Kernow, mostly locos

Model Rail, locos

Rail Express, locos

Rails of Sheffield, loco

New Australian/UK entrant, locos

Oxford mystery play, looks like a loco.

 

I've probably missed a few, but the loco-centricity of production plans is inescapably on view.

 

Now, while I don't hold to finite-pie economics, it is clear enough that if practically all the competition is only contesting the most profitable sector, then even those businesses which have provided a good selection of RTR stock in the past are likely to curtail their future plans in that area in order to compete most effectively for their share of the customer spend. I used to joke that the ViTrains train set options were the Tractor scrap train (Duff hauls a train of Tractors to the breakers) and the Duff scrap train (Tractor hauls a train of Duffs to the breakers). It's looking rather like Douglas Adams' 'shoe event horizon' isn't it?

[Linners]

The thing which concerns me about this sort of duplication (for it seems likely that is exactly what it is) is the fact that someone might have gone to considerable efforts to ensure that they can produce all common variants of a particular class (e.g. all three of the radials in their final BR condition, not an easy task) and thus have spent a lot of time and possibly money getting things sorted before announcing.  Equally their announcement could be part of a long term product plan which they have gradually been working towards.

 

Then another party suddenly comes into the situation with what might be - as far as modellers are concerned - no reputation and no 'pedigree' in development terms who offer up what might or might not be just a single version but which gets other running numbers and liveries slapped on it.  In the meanwhile because they are further behind or because the emerging competition is spinning an over-optimistic yarn the folk who've put in masses of hard work and taken time to get it right before going public are left holding a lot of useful research and good production ideas but little else.  Net result is that not only does the innovator lose out but also modellers might get a poorer deal.

 

And I wonder if wishlists might well have contributed to this state of affairs as folk with little else in the way of background or knowledge, and possibly even limited direct contact with modellers, simply cherry pick high scorers off wishlists?

 

Didn't a certain Mr SK, formerly of Hornby, fire a warning shot across our bows advising us to "Be careful for what we wish for"?

Edited October 17, 2014 by Linners

[The Stationmaster]

Didn't a certain Mr SK, formerly of Hornby, fire a warning shot across our bows advising us to "Be careful for what we wish for"?

In many respects what he said related, I think, more to quantity than variety.  As I've said elsewhere the old days of models selling in vast quantities over many years is probably exactly that - the old days.  Some models will undoubtedly run as staples for the big manufacturers but the market now is very much a niche market with all sorts of r-t-r items dropping into the area once held by kits, or even scratch-building and with comparatively short runs that are gone once they're gone (although some might be repeated).

 

A double-edged sword - as seems to be the case with the radial but alas the other edge of this sword might be even worse.  People looking for return on short runs might well go for cheaper tooling using other than hard metal which will allow slides which in turn means detail variations might not be modelled.  One manufacturer is known for using cheaper tooling which, as I understand things (I might be wrong?), is not compatible with the use of slides to achieve detail variants so if his model gets to market it can queer the pitch for another manufacturer who is prepared to spend more on tooling using harder metal which allows slides which allows all the detail variants.  So a might step forwards and a big leap backwards possibly?

 

Equally what about those who engage only in what I would call 'paper research' when an example of the real thing is out there to measure or scan - will their model be as accurate as one based on dimensions taken from the real thing, will their attention to detail be as great and the reproduction of that detail be as accurate?  Take for example the radials - well 'paper research' is obviously unavoidable for the detail variations between the final three let alone variation with earlier states of the class but there is a real one out there to measure or scan which can at least ensure some basic accuracy instead of relying solely on drawings (which are sometimes wrong) or photos or inaccurate texts.  There can be a mighty difference between those who want and try to get it as right as possible and those who just want to rush in as fast as possible and can't be bothered to research against the real thing. The modeller might get it sooner but would it be as good?

 

Don't ask me but the thing which is certain is that there seems to be a lot more to it, especially to trying to get it right, that the impression we are sometimes given and - as I've said before - that can queer the pitch for the good 'un (or what would have been the good 'un).

[Talltim]

There's a further problem, for those of us who like being able to buy 'good kitbuild quality' rolling stock to enable a fairly extensive operation to be modelled without having to build and finish hundreds of vehicles from kits.

 

As Dave Jones has candidly admitted, he's only working on locos, because that's where the best returns are to be obtained. Other than Bach and Hornby, look at all the other active RTR OO suppliers and commissioners proposed new introductions.

Heljan, locos

Dapol, locos (have they got any more wagon introductions listed, I don't know?)

Rapido, MU

DJM, locos

Hattons, locos

Kernow, mostly locos

Model Rail, locos

Rail Express, locos

Rails of Sheffield, loco

New Australian/UK entrant, locos

Oxford mystery play, looks like a loco.

 

I've probably missed a few, but the loco-centricity of production plans is inescapably on view.

 

Now, while I don't hold to finite-pie economics, it is clear enough that if practically all the competition is only contesting the most profitable sector, then even those businesses which have provided a good selection of RTR stock in the past are likely to curtail their future plans in that area in order to compete most effectively for their share of the customer spend. I used to joke that the ViTrains train set options were the Tractor scrap train (Duff hauls a train of Tractors to the breakers) and the Duff scrap train (Tractor hauls a train of Duffs to the breakers). It's looking rather like Douglas Adams' 'shoe event horizon' isn't it?

In the UK, there's FTG models who buck the trend of going for locos.

In the US, there are quite a few second tier and third RTR manufacturers who concentrate entirely or mainly on freight stock, Kadee, Accurail, Exactrail, Tangent, etc.

Edited October 17, 2014 by Talltim

[kenw]

There surely must be a way forward akin to this, because whilst four manufacturers are spending money on an identical prototype, three other prototypes are being ignored, which is detrimental to their profits and the hobby as a whole I would have thought... 

 

 

David

 

And, whilst four manufactured are spending time and money on a single prototype, three other regions are being ignored,

so four manufacturers end up chasing quarter of the market,

whilst three quarters of modelers get absolutely nothing.

Sounds like an ideal recipe for business suicide to me!

[Dunsignalling]

And, whilst four manufactured are spending time and money on a single prototype, three other regions are being ignored,

so four manufacturers end up chasing quarter of the market,

whilst three quarters of modelers get absolutely nothing.

Sounds like an ideal recipe for business suicide to me!

Or maybe they all take fright and the model only goes forward at all if one of them is too far committed to back out!

 

The number of potential new producers of British outline locos in OO coming out of the woodwork at present is unprecedented but, as with any business sector, some will fall by the wayside (with or without any duplication) and others will change their plans. It will all find its own level in time.

 

John

[John M Upton]

And, whilst four manufactured are spending time and money on a single prototype, three other regions are being ignored

Apologies, what prototype is currently the subject of four manufacturers attention? I am only aware if a couple of instances if two manufacturers on the King (DJModels/Hattons and Hornby) and the small pannier tank (Kernow and Heljan).

[Captain Kernow]

This is indeed all very interesting, but what are the specific commercial advantages in teasing everyone with a website that currently contains just an image of some dude in a Union Jack waistcoat, an image of a ghost train that's being hit by a phaser beam and a counting-down clock?!

[rembrow]

Well we'll find out in a couple of weeks, as oxford seem to be 'going live' with their new model rail range around about Warley, if not at Warley. Kernow are announcing a new steam loco model and a diesel model at Warley, so we'll soon know if there is a common model. What is interesting is that a previous op quoted some oxford info from a collectors site, which indicated they have 2 models in tooling or already tooled and 4 more approved. This indicates they will want to hit the ground with models nearly ready to release. Other makers when entering the rail model market did the same years ago, Airfix, Mainline and Bachmann all had models being worked on before they came to market, so that they could have product in the shops soon after they made their formal announcements.In talking to my local model shop, they were unaware of the forthcoming Oxfordrail activity, even though they sell oxford diecast products. They are very excited about the possibilities, having become very disillusioned with the model rail trade from the decisions of the two main players this year. They saw that oxford diecast shook up tbe model diecast market over the last few years and were seen to be progressive and innovative, developing new ranges when the main players were not investing. They also showed that they could ubdercut the main opposition sigificantly, as an example, the 2 main manufacturers EFE andCorgi (Hornby), retail coach or bus models in 1/76 scale at over £30 per model and have made very few additions by new tooling in the last 5 years. Oxford diexast has introduced 5 new coach tools in the last 2,3 years with 2 more planned at prices tbat are half tbose of the competition. They are hoping that they can deal with oxfordrail via wholesalers as they do with their diecast products, which could give greater flexibility in order levels.

[The Stationmaster]

Apologies, what prototype is currently the subject of four manufacturers attention? I am only aware if a couple of instances if two manufacturers on the King (DJModels/Hattons and Hornby) and the small pannier tank (Kernow and Heljan).

As I think has already been mentioned up-thread it is about the Adams radial with an implication, depending on how you look at the ghost image, that Oxfordrail are actually tooling one, Kernow have been posting 'teaser' pictures of all three of the final ones with an implication they might be heading towards announcing them, Britrains (a spin-off from Austrains) have also been mentioned as intending to produce one.  So that makes three assumed companies with at least a hint of some sort that they are heading towards producing a radial.  Rumour has it - and it is no more than rumour - that there might be a fourth company in the hunt as well but they have not (to my knowledge) been publicly identified but informed guesswork might yield a clue, accurately or not.

 

Now if the assumption about Oxford is correct, and if what they are saying is also correct, it would appear that tooling is taking place and therefore they are in the lead although whether they will offer all 3 final variants is not known or whether they are doing an early version or whatever is equally not known - thus far.  But unless they offer accurate versions of all three of the final locos - which is what some modellers would seem to want - it looks like you can forget anyone else ever offering them.  

[Dunsignalling]

It took four attempts before the r-t-r trade eventually came up with a 'Western' that satisfied over half the punters.

 

As an Axminster boy, the very thought of up to four producers having a go at the Adams Radial strikes me as sublime and ridiculous all at the same time!

 

If anybody is thinking about something beyond locos, an ex-LNWR 12-wheel sleeper and an ex-SECR '100-seater' would be appropriate for a lot of SR coastal branches as well as their home patches. For the uninitiated, the former were used as crew dormitories and the latter as strengtheners in the peak season.

 

John 

[Butler Henderson]

As an Axminster boy, the very thought of up to four producers having a go at the Adams Radial strikes me as sublime and ridiculous all at the same time!

Turkeys voting for Christmas springs to mind, two 1361s is barking enough and if they all go ahead one thing we can be assurred of is massive discounts after a while in an attempt to shift the glut / satisfy the bank manager. Whats more amusing is this apparent rush to announce yet more new releases for some future date whilst there is a huge list of models awaited, and for once not all from Barwell. Is anyone, otherthan possibly Oxford, going to release anything at Warley/NEC?

[TheSignalEngineer]

I'm still thinking Adams Radial with stovepipe chimney after a bit of messing this afternoon.

[antrobuscp]

I'm still thinking Adams Radial with stovepipe chimney after a bit of messing this afternoon.

clip_fog3a.JPG

I think  your're very probably correct. The position of the image in the frame does, to me, rule out a tender loco that someone else has suggested.

[Captain Kernow]

I'm still thinking Adams Radial with stovepipe chimney after a bit of messing this afternoon.

clip_fog3a.JPG

I think the phaser beam hitting the model is someone with a bit of common sense trying to whittle the four apparent contenders for the same prototype down to a more sensible level...

[Frappington Jct]

After all this excitement about Radials and how this is almost certainly one of them, it would make me laugh if this turns out to be something completely different!

[mvrnut]

Could it possibly be the LSWR Adams T3, of which there is an example in the NRM. I would rather hope so and leave the Adams Radial for perhaps KMRC to produce.

 

Cheers,

  Chris

[stewartingram]

I've been playing in Photoshop too.

Firstly, does the radial have a stovepipe chimney. My limited range of pics say not, but I'm a GER person!

 

Why is the chimney a light colour, like the boiler. Or is this a ploy to confuse us? What liveries have light colours?

 

There is a handrail in the normal position along the boiler/smokebox. But there is something else parallel with it, a little bit above.

 

There is a fitting on the side of the box (don't know the technical term), with a downward pipe from it.

 

There is quite possibly a white disc on the top lamp iron.

 

Difficult to say for sure, but possibly there are no side tanks.

 

Just trying to provoke some discussion for the sake of fun!

 

 

Stewart

[chrisf]

... and to think I got told off on another thread when I commented on hysteria being whipped up.

 

Chris