Hattons announce 14xx / 48xx / 58xx

[The Stationmaster]

While I think an updated 14xx is a good thing, am I the only one that thinks that the price is rather "strong"? I haven't paid so much to get so little since my last divorce.....

It's not too far off the going rate for a small tank engine to modern standards - that, like it or not, is where prices are going nowadays.

[john dew]

According to the RCTS volume, all were renumbered between October and December 1946.

 

Nick

 

Thanks Nick that is very helpful and narrows the choice for me........sounds like another (but much more accurate ) 1420  for Granby.

 

One further question if I may:

 

I am assuming that "British Railways" (sans serif) is the initial temporary logo applied immediately after nationalisation............so in that sense 5816 would be quite appropriate for my layout...........but I am less sure about the red lining......it seems rather extravagant for those dark days.

 

I do appreciate your advice.....I am something of a novice in this area

 

Regards

[Coombe Barton]

John

 

Renumbering's one thing (48xx to 14xx because of 48xx being allocated to oil burning (see http://www.greatwestern.org.uk/m_in_gwr_oil_fire.htm) but not 58xx, but simultaneous repainting was not done as routine. I've never seen any photo of any 14xx or 58xx being lettered BRITISH RAILWAYS, just the listing above. If you haven't already looked here - http://www.greatwestern.org.uk/ - just delve.

 

And just found http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=48376

Edited November 23, 2014 by Coombe Barton

[Horsetan]

Are you saying you are actually going to have something made and in the shops? Really?

It is said that it is better to keep quiet and be thought a fool, than to open one's mouth and confirm it.

 

He already has - see the Dapol "Western". It was that model (and the Beattie) which seems to have convinced him he could go it alone.

[Torn-on-the-platform]

Whilst trying to find evidence of the dummy 14xx for the Titfield Thunderbolt, I stumbled across this rather entertaining video of the 2012 NNR re-enactment:

 

[john dew]

John

 

Renumbering's one thing (48xx to 14xx because of 48xx being allocated to oil burning (see http://www.greatwestern.org.uk/m_in_gwr_oil_fire.htm) but not 58xx, but simultaneous repainting was not done as routine. I've never seen any photo of any 14xx or 58xx being lettered BRITISH RAILWAYS, just the listing above. If you haven't already looked here - http://www.greatwestern.org.uk/ - just delve.

 

And just found http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=48376

 

Thanks for those links......I am afraid they didnt provide any real evidence for or against. This site     http://www.gwr.org.uk/liveriesloco1948.html  while not being explicit does imply that this livery (ie lined out) is probably unlikely for 1948 .

 

On balance it is beginning to sound like GWR green for Granby although I might be tempted by  4807 in GWR war time black  and renumber it to 1407 ......now that would be authentic!

 

Nevertheless I am intrigued why the livery was selected....hopefully, once recovered from Warley, Dave Jones will be able to enlighten me.

[DJM Dave]

Thanks for those links......I am afraid they didnt provide any real evidence for or against. This site     http://www.gwr.org.uk/liveriesloco1948.html  while not being explicit does imply that this livery (ie lined out) is probably unlikely for 1948 .

 

On balance it is beginning to sound like GWR green for Granby although I might be tempted by  4807 in GWR war time black  and renumber it to 1407 ......now that would be authentic!

 

Nevertheless I am intrigued why the livery was selected....hopefully, once recovered from Warley, Dave Jones will be able to enlighten me.

Hi Jhn,

 

I'm fully recovered from Warley........because I wasn't there! But phew, the news and comments regarding the weekend and announcements left me breathless. :-)

 

To answer your question I truly do not know. This matrix of liveries was produced and supplied by Hatton's, and I had no input in their choice im afraid.

Could I suggest dropping them a line this morning and asking them? Im pretty sure they spent hours trawling through information and pictures to get to their final selection.

 

Cheers

Dave

[Karhedron]

I am assuming that "British Railways" (sans serif) is the initial temporary logo applied immediately after nationalisation............so in that sense 5816 would be quite appropriate for my layout...........but I am less sure about the red lining......it seems rather extravagant for those dark days.

Don't worry, Hattons have done their homework on this one. 5816 did indeed carry a rather unusual livery exactly as described.

 

https://chasewaterstuff.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/5816.jpg

[john dew]

Don't worry, Hattons have done their homework on this one. 5816 did indeed carry a rather unusual livery exactly as described.

 

https://chasewaterstuff.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/5816.jpg

 

Thanks Karhedron......clear tangible evidence!

 

I felt pretty confident that Hattons/DJM must have done their due diligence, but I do agree with you that it is "rather unusual" for the class. I wonder when and why it was applied.

 

I have taken Dave's advice and asked Hattons......I will report back

 

Regards

[coachmann]

The opening picture of this thread is really nice. Reminds me of the work of artist George Heiron. The GW 0-4-2T, GW King and WD J94 have one thing in common, all done by Hornby. Now call me suspicious, but when Hornby has been messing with retailers, is this a case of don't get annoyed, get even....? 

[Legend]

The opening picture of this thread is really nice. Reminds me of the work of artist George Heiron. The GW 0-4-2T, GW King and WD J94 have one thing in common, all done by Hornby. Now call me suspicious, but when Hornby has been messing with retailers, is this a case of don't get annoyed, get even....? 

 

And if so , good on them. The King is dead......Long live the King!

[john dew]

As promised I emailed Hattons regarding the 58xx in BR Black lined livery asking if it would be suitable for my 1947-48 layout

 

Within 5 minutes I received this reply

 

Hi John

 

Thanks for the email.

 

We have evidence of the loco in question (5816) carrying BR lined black with British Railways lettering but the dates it was repainted takes a bit of delving and presumption.

 

The earliest we can see it would have been repainted was during a Heavy Casual repair on 11/2/49 and then it looks as though it will have carried it until 15/1/53 when it went into Stafford Road Factory for a Heavy Intermediate overhaul and should have been repainted to show the BR early crest.  With it being withdrawn in 2/7/57 it is highly unlikely to have had the Late Crest applied.

 

So to answer your question unfortunately the loco is not going to fit into your 1947-1948 time frame.

 

The best loco's for you would be:

 

H1402

H1406

H1407

H1411

 

Of these H1411 (5801) is in GWR livery with Smokebox door number and 89C Machynlleth shed code and was in this condition 1948-1958 so would cover your period and (almost) your area of modelling.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Kind regards,

 

Dave Mylett

Research & Development

 

I have no connection with Hattons other than as a very satisfied customer for 20+ years........even by their standards this is pretty impressive customer service.

 

Dave Mylett is clearly an ace at research.....my email never mentioned Granby is based in North Wales!

 

Now off to get my pre orders in

[gwrrob]

An amazing reply from a retailer that proves he reads RMweb.Top class service.

[Karhedron]

Don't worry, Hattons have done their homework on this one. 5816 did indeed carry a rather unusual livery exactly as described.

 

Just noticed that Tower Models offer 5816 in this livery but they have applied it incorrectly. The lined panel on the bunker is rectangular one the prototype and lines up with the larger panel on the tank sides.

 

The Tower Models version incorrectly has the panel the full height of the bunker. Worth bearing this in mind so as not to reproduce the error along the livery.

 

[coachmann]

I don't think the bunker was lined out. The words British Railways were hand painted hence the different font from true Gill Sans.

[Karhedron]

I don't think the bunker was lined out. The words British Railways were hand painted hence the different font from true Gill Sans.

If you look at the B&W picture, you can clearly see the lining on the bunker. It is a rectangular panel the full width of the bunker but the same height as the one on the tanks.

 

Normally the lining on the bunker was full height as per the Tower Models version but 5816 was different. To be fair it was unusual enough for a member of this class to receive lined black at all. There probably was not much guidance about exactly how the livery was meant to be applied.

Edited November 25, 2014 by Karhedron

[brushman47544]

I hadn't realised the 14xx/48xx was such a minefield of variants. All those models announced and no BR lined green, late crest, pristine with top feed. If the weathering really is very light and done well, I might go for that version. Otherwise I'll probably stick with the Bachmann 64xx that should be out soon and can be used with my B-Set too.

[NHY 581]

Are you saying you are actually going to have something made and in the shops? Really?

That maybe true but DJM or whatever they call themselves are a bunch of dreamers at the moment. The list of products that they are proposing gets longer and longer but nothing in the shops.

While people here are banging on about Hornby duplicating products at least they get the stuff out..

 

That's not even constructive.

 

Posts like this have no place here or on any other thread.

 

Like many others on here I have a quiet respect for what Dave is trying to achieve and wish him all the best in his own and his joint ventures.

 

There are a few on here who appear to relish the opportunity to single Dave out. It is very unpleasant and unwelcome.

 

Kindly take this elsewhere.

 

Rob.

[NunneyCastle5029]

wooo just ordered 1420 and 1450 soo happy both will be perfect for my next exhibition layout!

[Coach bogie]

As I understand it the 48xx were renumbered to 14xx in 1946

 

I know that livery changes did not happen overnight......I believe shirt buttons and even the occasional Great Western could be seen in 1947 and GWR into the fifties.

 

However I would have thought a class renumbering, although not instantaneous, would have to be more immediate.

 

My question, therefore, is how unrealistic/unlikely would a 48xx loco be on my 1947/1948  layout.

 

Any comments about how renumbering took place would be much appreciated

The renumber was fairly quick as the new 14xx plates were sent out to sheds and the original 48xx plates returned to Swindon and fitted to oil fired 28XX engines. Not all the 48xx plates were used as the oil fire programme was abandoned before all the intended engines had been converted.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[john dew]

Thanks Mike

 

I thought it would have to be fairly immediate but hadnt realised that they recycled the plates although, on reflection, it makes sense.

 

I have pre ordered 4807 in wartime black with the intention of renumbering it to 1407. I guess I will have to make sure that I dont leave the old plates lying around Granby Shed!

 

 

One other livery question related to this release . 5801 is listed as being in "unlined BR green with GWR lettering" . The more I think about this the more confused I become......I thought BR Green and GWR Green (of that period) were almost identical but in any event how could a loco be repainted in BR Green and then have GWR lettering applied............unless I suppose it is in preservation.....which wouldnt suit me.

[57xx]

 

One other livery question related to this release . 5801 is listed as being in "unlined BR green with GWR lettering" . The more I think about this the more confused I become......

 

I would think this is just a cut 'n' paste editing error given the amount of liveries they are delivering.

[57xx]

That's not even constructive.

 

Posts like this have no place here or on any other thread.

 

I wouldn't worry about it, not sure whether it was done before or after your post, but this person will not be trolling on here any more, their account has been removed.

[Ozexpatriate]

Good luck with this venture Dave. LIke the King from Hattons (and the O2, 1361 and steam railmotor from Kernow) I will certainly be ordering at least one of the 14xx variants. My interests are well served by your projects.

 

I remain boggled that you are able to stage all this activity, as evidenced by the 1361 CADs (thank you), and keep all of it on track and moving forward along with your own branded efforts. (I really like the colours you have chosen for your box design by the way).

 

I'm not sure how it is possible without a cloning machine. Even though I'm sure much of the detailed work like CADs is outsourced to others, just keeping tabs on where everything is and that it meets customer requirements has to be more than a full-time job. Good luck and best wishes keeping all those balls in the air.

[DJM Dave]

Good luck with this venture Dave. LIke the King from Hattons (and the O2, 1361 and steam railmotor from Kernow) I will certainly be ordering at least one of the 14xx variants. My interests are well served by your projects.

 

I remain boggled that you are able to stage all this activity, as evidenced by the 1361 CADs (thank you), and keep all of it on track and moving forward along with your own branded efforts. (I really like the colours you have chosen for your box design by the way).

 

I'm not sure how it is possible without a cloning machine. Even though I'm sure much of the detailed work like CADs is outsourced to others, just keeping tabs on where everything is and that it meets customer requirements has to be more than a full-time job. Good luck and best wishes keeping all those balls in the air.

Hi mate,

 

I'm not saying it's all easy, as it takes work.

It also needs a work ethic from the person in charge ( me) to live, breath and sleep trains and customer interaction.

If your a CEO or owner and you havn't the vested interest in commitment, you shouldn't be in the business in my opinion.

Mind you, if I build up the business now, I should be able to retire in 258 years ;-)

 

Cheers

Dave