Dan's new (unnamed) layout thread.

[DanielB]

Greetings!

With Cane River having gone as far as it realistically can, it has reached the point where replacing it would be less work than trying to work it into a new layout.

As such, I've been working on a new layout plan that will be developed at as slow a pace as it requires to be done right - benchwork built to requirements in open frame style, hand build track and turnouts, fully wired point blades, controlled by turnout motors and fully capable of computer control.

The idea is to have a "round the walls" layout that is divided into 3 sections - 1) the mainline run and classification yard, 2) upper deck industrial switching area, and 3) lower deck switching area and hidden staging.

I have the basics of the track plan envisioned, and have gone for a much less "British" approach to the layout design and taken as much inspiration from US practice as possible.

The mainline run will be built first, with the switching areas coming later. Handbuilt track will allow me much more realism over using store bought Peco track, and will also allow me to fit the plan to the space available, and not be forced to fit the plan to the track available!

I have the track plans for the upper deck and lower deck switching areas, as well as a basic 3D rendering of the mainline run.

Track level on the two decks will be separated by a height of 10", which should give me plenty of room to work as well as allowing for a lot of mainline run to drop down the distance between the decks. The mainline section will be - in essence, a fully scenic oval style helix, with level sections at various spots to give the locos something of a break from the 2% gradient it will mostly need.

I'm not too worried about train lengths, as those will be limited by what my locos can handle on the grades in question, as well as the storage space in the hidden staging and the classification yard - plus I don't have the money for 50+ car trains!

Anyway, enough waffling from me, here are the initial track plans and 3D rendering.

Top deck industrial switching district:


This will connect to the track on the top level of the mainline run. On the 3D rendering the connecting track can be seen in the very bottom right of the plan (Labelled "1" with a Red arrow)

Lower deck staging and switching district, with an interchange with a secondary shortline railroad:


This will connect to the track on the bottom of the mainline run. On the 3D rendering, the switching district will connect to the track exiting the main layout on the bottom right of the plan - it will be the left most of the two tracks (Labelled "2" with a Blue arrow). The hidden storage tracks will connect to the right most of the two tracks (Labelled "3" with a Yellow arrow).

3D rendering of the mainline run - to show this as a SCARM trackplan from above would show nothing but a jumbled mess of tracks, it needs to be seen in 3D to see what it's all about:



I intend to add more switching areas to the mainline run, including a depot with freight house, a few mills and factories, as well as a coal mine and possibly a logging area with a sawmill. The large expanse of green between the classification yard and the tracks behind it will feature a river separating the two areas, giving an idea of two railroads running on opposite sides of a river gorge, as inspired by one of the layouts in Great Model Railways 2014 - The Virginian and Ohio (particularly the image shown on page 26).

Enough waffling from me - work will commence slowly but surely, and will kick off in earnest at the start of the new year.

Let me know what you guys think.

[GWR88]

I'm looking forward as to how this progresses! I take it that its N scale? One point i would make though is that it looks like a large amount of track (to me at least) in the area that it is but i may be wrong.  Apart from that, i really like the plan and i especially like the street running/switching district.

Keep us posted!

Lloyd

[dave1905]

So you are changing your focus from Louisiana to Colorado?

[DanielB]

I'm not so sure yet Dave. Maybe have the top deck represent somewhere in Northern Georgia, and have the lower deck represent somewhere in Louisiana, with the main layout representing the descent down from one to the other?

 

What do you think?

[Adrian Wintle]

I'm thinking that the multiple lines crossing each other would make a nice Appalachian scene (if you like trees) or, as Dave suggests, Colorado (if you don't).

 

Appalachia gives you all sorts of options in terms of coal tipples (of all sizes from something like the Walthers mines down to a lineside truck dump) for local switching along the way.

https://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/933-3836

https://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/933-3221

 

If you are thinking that way the Morning Sun 'Appalachian Coal Mines and Railroads' books (Volume 1: Kentucky and Volume 2: Virginia have been published so far) are wonderful inspirations.

 

I just found a wonderful little scene in a photo in 'Louisville & Nashville n the Appalachians' of a location on the KY subdivision. The line comes out of a tunnel, crosses a creek and goes back into a tunnel - based on the photo there are two loco lengths from the tunnel portal to the bridge, the bridge is 3 locos long (it is a five-unit lashup in Family Lines livery), and an estimated two loco lengths takes them into the next tunnel.

https://www.google.ca/maps/@37.3756745,-84.2748021,661m/data=!3m1!1e3

 

Adrian

[dave1905]

I prefer a strong theme, it can be freelance, just something that you can look at and say that makes sense, I can see what the person is modeling.

[F-UnitMad]

Hmmm... in the same vein as Simon, I hope this is taken as constructive...

As I've started this process myself in O Scale, I must admit I'm struggling to successfully connect {quote} "hand build track and turnouts" with the plan:-

 

In N scale...!!??   Whilst I applaud the ambition, to hand-spike track in N is a phenomenal undertaking! To go for it straight away on a "basement Empire" might just be a bit too ambitious? It would take you a helluva long time to get any trains running - guess how I know?

[shortliner]

Dan - not trying to put you off - but coming up to my ¾ century n- I haven't yet found my "lifetime" layout - the grass in the next valley always looks greener, and somebody always posts something that triggers off another idea!

[MikeHohn]

I'm not so sure yet Dave. Maybe have the top deck represent somewhere in Northern Georgia, and have the lower deck represent somewhere in Louisiana, with the main layout representing the descent down from one to the other?

 

What do you think?

I like the idea of starting in the mountains of Georgia. There is a rather famous tunnel: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_and_Atlantic_Railroad_Tunnel_at_Tunnel_Hill

 

Have you considered relocating your sea level terminus on the Atlantic?

 

Mike

[dave1905]

With so much track and so much vertical change, the opportunity for any type of industry or "town" along the way will be reduced.  I would draw out the schematic of the layout and see if that is what you want operationally.

[switcher 1]

....or optionally, build a scale model in Z or T scale, just to be sure.....

[DanielB]

Cheers for all the feedback chaps. Perhaps hand built track on the ENTIRE layout might be a bit... overly ambitious. To be honest there are areas where I am going to need to hand build crossovers and such, so figured I might as well go the whole hog!

 

The more I study the plan the more I feel that perhaps PECO track would be wiser. Maybe I could go for hand build track on the switching areas? We'll see what I settle on in the end.

 

Still, everything is in a bit of a state of flux at the moment - everything is subject to change! I've not even started building it yet and I've already tweaked the plan!

 

For the setting, Georgia is possibly the setting for the upper deck at least. Not sure about the lower deck, mind you. I'm definitely open to suggestions. I do like the idea of the Appalachian mountains as a setting, as I've always been fond of layouts set there. Help and advice would be most welcome.

 

I have been sitting and studying the plan and it seemed a little one sided, so to speak - all the action (hidden staging, classification yard, etc) was all on the bottom deck.

 

I figured it's probably wiser to have a reason for the main line trains to be running whilst the operators of the switching districts on the two decks are doing their thing.

 

As such, I've removed the passing loop on the top deck before the transition from main layout to the switching district and have replaced it with a slightly smaller interchange yard. This will give 3 visible staging tracks on the top deck and 4 on the bottom deck, allowing for the main line operator to run a sequence of 7 trains over time.

 

Start one train from the bottom deck and one from the top deck heading toward each other. Hold the train from the bottom deck in the passing loop part way along the main line, and allow the descending train to pass it before proceeding.

 

When the trains reach the other yards they will be broken down and switched to the various industries, whilst the switchers set out another train for the locos to take back in the opposite direction.

 

To give the main line operator something a little more interesting to do, there will be industries and depots along the main line route, allowing for a local train to be sent out and switched should the switching district crews need more time to finish switching out the cars from the arriving trains to form the departing ones.

 

In addition, it will allow for a more challenging schedule to run from having to weave the local train in and out of the mainline run whilst the through trains are moving directly from yard to yard.

 

Due to this new plan, I have also removed the hidden storage altogether as it is no longer required, and have filled the space on the lower deck with more industries and a depot.

 

As for the line at 3. on the initial plan that fed into the hidden staging, I have turned that into a reversing loop for storage of the local train.

 

Except for these two changes, the rest of the plan remains the same.

 

New 3D rendering of the main layout, as well as a new trackplan for the lower deck industrial district are below. As always, feedback is most appreciated.

 

 

[DanielB]

Here are a couple more images to help with seeing where everything is. First the track plan for the main layout:

 

 

Plus another view of the 3D rendering, this time from the location of the upper level staging:

 

[dave1905]

For the setting, Georgia is possibly the setting for the upper deck at least. Not sure about the lower deck, mind you. I'm definitely open to suggestions. I do like the idea of the Appalachian mountains as a setting, as I've always been fond of layouts set there. Help and advice would be most welcome.

 

 

I'm not as familiar with the topography of Georgia or its industry. It seems a little south of Appalachia.

 

I have been sitting and studying the plan and it seemed a little one sided, so to speak - all the action (hidden staging, classification yard, etc) was all on the bottom deck.

 

 

Lots of other things to consider. Lots of hidden or obscured track, no room for industries, the entire layout is rock faces or retaining walls.

 

I figured it's probably wiser to have a reason for the main line trains to be running whilst the operators of the switching districts on the two decks are doing their thing.

 

 

Huge issue is that the you have both switching areas one above the other and only separated by about a foot. Very difficult to have two operators each switching an area at the same time. They will always be fighting for access . Poor bottom area guy will always have a 3 ft swath of his area obscured because the top area guy will be standing in front of the layout.

 

As such, I've removed the passing loop on the top deck before the transition from main layout to the switching district and have replaced it with a slightly smaller interchange yard. This will give 3 visible staging tracks on the top deck and 4 on the bottom deck, allowing for the main line operator to run a sequence of 7 trains over time.

 

 

Why are the trains running? What do they do? Where are they going to and from? Hidden staging isn't horrible (accessible is better).

 

To give the main line operator something a little more interesting to do, there will be industries and depots along the main line route, allowing for a local train to be sent out and switched should the switching district crews need more time to finish switching out the cars from the arriving trains to form the departing ones.

 

 

With the vertical nature and all the track, I doubt you will have room for many industries and since most of the layout will be on a grade, stopping a train to switch will be a concern. You have drawn trackage that looks like there should be a mine on the left hand side of the layout. Where does the mine shaft and tipple go? You will have to put it behind, to the left of the two tipple tracks which means you will have to bury at leat two if not three of the mains behind the mine area.

 

New 3D rendering of the main layout, as well as a new trackplan for the lower deck industrial district are below. As always, feedback is most appreciated.

 

 

Very scary plan. Maybe 1/3 of the trackage doesn't have a track above it. Access back into the corners will be a challenge. Its your railroad, I would be afraid it will be a nightmare to build and maintain. Draw the schematic for a railroad, then see how to fit it into the footprint.

[trisonic]

A small part of Georgia is in Appalachia but for the most part it is plateau or coastal plain - otherwise I tend to agree with Dave. It’s a bit Spaghetti Junction-like.

 

Then again I’m of the “less is more” "KISS” ilk. If you’re not insistent on mountains then the main CSX line (with juice trains to NJ/NY) and a shortline connection may suit you. Craig Z. may be able to point you in that direction as he is relatively local.

 

Good luck! Pete.

[Adrian Wintle]

If you do like Appalachia, look a little further north - Virginia, Tennessee, Kentucky, or possibly North Carolina (which could give some bayou-like terrain as you get towards the coast). It would also fit in the anthracite region of Pennsylvania, or in the Alleghenies (but that would be even further north)

 

Adrian

[dave1905]

Rather than a coal mine, I would put a coal fired power plant.  Georgia Power is a huge consumer of coal from all over.  A coal fired plant would allow the use of just about any major railroad's engines.  Both the UP and BNSF originate trains for GP.

 

I would use the premise of the MNA railroad.  It is a former MP/UP line that was spun off as a shortline.  It runs from Newport, AR to almost Kansas City.  It has its own local business and a coal fired plant supplied with trains off the UP.  Every so often a UP train will detour over the MNA.

 

If I were building a modern Georgia shortline railroad, I would run it as a spun off branch of the Southern or CSX.  I would have an interchange on on both ends with a class yard in the middle.  On the south end would be a power plant.  I would run coal trains from the north interchange to the power plant and empties back.  Freights would run cars from the yard to the interchanges at either end.  Locals would originate out of the yard and service each half of the railroad.  Besides the power plant, I would have a couple pulpwood yards, a paper mill, a container plant (cardboard boxes), a bag mill (paper bags), a peanut processing plant, a chicken farm (grain trains),  plus the usual victims (feed mill, scrap yard, team track, beer distributor.).  I would build it as either a loop to point with stub staging on either end (and put a loop at the coal plant) or a continuous loop.  On the MNA the coal trains only run north, the loads come in the southern end and the empites go out the northeren end.  Making a directional flow like that would be easy on a model railroad.

[Barry Ten]

You've got a lot going on there, Dan, and ordinarily I'd worry that you might be biting off a bit much ... but that said, you have built a layout already so you must have a good idea of your own pace and time management, which is the main thing.

 

Keep in mind a few things though - each of those fully wired points, whether you build them by hand, or buy them ready to lay, will need a certain number of soldering operations, and that can get awfully tedious awfully fast when you're doing a lot of them! Each of the points on the GA&E needed a minimum of 13 soldered connections for the motor and polarity switching and the control panel, and while you might knock a few off by using Tortoises and doing things via computer, it could still be a lot of work. I notice that a lot of the more complicated layouts in Model Railroader use manual switches, and when you think of the overheads in turns of wiring up points, you can start to see why. Personally I like to be able to operate my points remotely, but with around 40 on the GA&E - and a few more yet to do - it can get very repetitive, and that's before you start worrying about ballasting, weathering, detailing and maintenance! The idea of doing all that lot and then also handlaying them? Great if that's your only hobby, and you plan on spending several years doing little but that?

 

The other thing to mention - and again you'll have an idea of this - is that buildings take a heck of a lot of time for little reward in terms of coverage of surface area! That industrial area, at the rate I work, would again be several years of building construction. Great if that's what you want, but good to know in advance before you get too deep...

[MikeHohn]

Many of the points I might have made have already been addressed. However, I do want to support what one person wrote: avoid having switching districts one above the other. The problem is very real. We made the mistake of having two such areas one above the other on our large club layout. No fun at all. At least offset them so there is minimal overlap.

 

Mike

[switcher 1]

Thought this may be of interest to you,

 

Maybe this as well,

[Robatron86]

Certainly very ambitious mate! I wish you luck on this once you get going.

[DanielB]

Someone reminded me at the weekend that I live in a rented house, and really can't be diving into a multi-decked railroad empire considering I could end up moving house at any moment.

 

As such, I've gone back to the drawing board.

 

Reading through How to Build Small Model Railroads, I came across a plan designed to fit on one 8'x4' plywood sheet, forming a shelf layout of 8'x9' when the board had been cut to shape. The plan - the Housatonic Valley Railway, is simple and neat and yet has plenty of scope for operations and scenics.

 

The question is, can I compress it to fit the space I have?

 

If so, this might become my own 'Gulf, Atlanta & Eastern'.

 

After compressing the plan considerably, and taking a few liberties, the answer is yes - it does fit. The detailed plan is below, but please note that the hidden staging at the back will be concealed inside removable scenic modules, and - though it is straight and pressed up against the rear of the board, when I build it, it will actually be curved toward the front of the layout, so as to enable it to be relatively easily reached from the front of the layout.

 

Enough rabbiting from me - here's the plan. Let me know what you think?

 

[ceejaydee]

I like that plan Dan although I'm finding it hard to scale the length and width of the boards on the layout proper despite you supplying dimensions.

 

Plenty of spurs for switching opportunities and a couple of sidings to store different consists so you could operate as a proper layout using cards etc for switching movements or simply build up a couple of trains and run them round for pleasure

[Barry Ten]

Do you need a wye as well as a turntable at the engine facility?

 

Simon's right in that you probably don't need both - the other thing to consider is that unless it's the end of a line, an engine facility would normally be situated at a point where there'd be a sensible reason why locomotives are detached and added to trains, in other words, a yard. I didn't give this due consideration on my layout until I'd acquired all the kits for the locomotive terminal, at which point I then had a problem finding room for a yard that was in a logical relationship with the terminal. However, it needn't be a large yard - just two or three double-ended sidings off the main would suffice, and you could probably squeeze them in where you have the passenger depot, without losing anything already in your plan.

[DanielB]

I might drop the Wye, not sure yet. The turntable I have is a Peco one so not designed for US prototypes. As I have a big Bachmann articulated loco I threw the wye in there too. I'm not that happy with the track layout there, it's been bugging me all evening.

 

A real railroad wouldn't have both, and neither should I. Besides, if I think about it, what 'middle-of-nowhere' port town is going to have the facilities to turn such a massive beast?