A Notion about Boilers (and Duchesses)

[Luke Piewalker]

I was thinking, seeing as the 'big' hurdle of main line steam engines seems to be the boiler refurbishment, is there not a case (specifically thinking about the two (+1) Duchesses) for building a new boiler which would allow you (for example) to get 6229 back on the rails, then have that boiler refurbished ready for the next loco requiring it be it 46233, 6229 or maybe even 46235, and so on so that there was always a boiler ready to go to maximise the number of locos running, and also minimising the down time required (nearly 20 years in the case of 6229).

Obviously there would be many cost, ownership and other such hurdles to be overcome, and maybe I have misunderstood and the boiler refurbishment isn't the major factor I think it is. But is it an idea worth considering?

[Unknown Warrior]

I think that there are two main hurdles, firstly cost: the boiler for "The Unknown Warrior," is just under half a million pounds and a Duchess Boiler is considerably bigger! Secondly two of the Duchesses are owned by public bodies, the NRM and Birmingham City Council, the later certainly doesn't have the funds or the inclination.

 

Currently I believe that the boilers of 6233 &6235 are in relatively good condition, so there is not the incentive to build a new one, even if there were any immediate prospect of 6235 escaping from The Thoinktank!

 

The overhaul of 6229 is delayed by the ongoing "Scotsman Saga." Once the Scotsman Overhaiul is complete I think it is probable that attension will turn to 6229 as I think there are many people, myself included, who dream of the day of seeing a streamline Duchess attacking Shap again.

 

So the short answer, I think is "no" I can't see a case for building a new Duchess boiler for a least another decade.

[LMS2968]

I have to agree: I think you'd need more than two working locos to justify the cost of a spare boiler. Staying with the LMS, even the Black Fives would struggle to support this: although there are many preserved examples, they use three different boiler types and none would justify the expense. You might have better luck with the GWR fraternity, where one boiler type was common to several classes, but even there I have reservations.

[Luke Piewalker]

It was just a thought, I new there would be downsides I was missing...

Of course, you could always use the 'spare boiler' as the basis of a 4-6-4

[69843]

A slight bit O/T, but I know that this is basically the idea that the A1SLT has.

 

I read somewhere on the A1/P2 site or in one of the enewsletters that they were going to have three Dia.118A boilers for use on the A1 and P2 to allow overhauls to be sped up.

[Chameleon]

Flying Scotsman came with two boilers. The A4 boiler it was fitted with was in better nick than the spare A3 one so the sold it and renovated the A3 one. They could have had a usable boiler to share between the A3 and A4s. Mind you, I think the owner of Bittern bought it so they at least have it as a spare.

[Focalplane]

A good idea in principle but as mentioned the ownership of 6235 will be a problem.  If City of Brum could be released from its prison then it might well be in very good condition for overhaul and at least limited steaming on a heritage line.  However that may well be a pipe dream, sad to say.

 

Although I support the various new builds, I really do think that 6235 should be the number 1 priority for returning to main line service.  As it is, it ain't going to happen as I understand the StinkTank was built around the locomotive (hence my reference to a prison).  On a personal basis I won't go there.  I remember the old Museum of Science and Industry on Newhall Street with great affection.  The locomotive even moved under electric power several times a day, but that can no longer happen.  So the multimedia attraction holds no interest to an old trainspotter like me.

[Focalplane]

By the way, they aren't "Duchesses".  The official class was called "Princess Coronation".  The de-streamlined locomotives were nicknamed "Semis" because the top of the smokebox retained the shape of the streamlined casing, which is how they were generally referred to by the trainspotting fraternity of the 1950s even though new smoke boxes had been fitted by then.  Of the 58 locomotives only a few were Duchesses, though 2 of these happened to have survived.  More were named by the Cities the LMS served, so in fact the better class nickname could be "Cities".

[LMS2968]

Whether or not, they were often referred to as 'Duchesses', sometimes even on official documentation, but I've never heard of their being called 'Cities'. To the enginemen, they were variously known as 'Lizzies' (same as the earlier class), 'Big Lizzies' (to differentiate) or to Crewe men, simply 'Big 'uns'. By the way, I think you finger slipped on the keyboard there; there were 38 of them, not 58. If there had been that many, operations on the WCML would have been so much easier.

[runs as required]

Whether or not, they were often referred to as 'Duchesses', sometimes even on official documentation, but I've never heard of their being called 'Cities'. To the enginemen, they were variously known as 'Lizzies' (same as the earlier class), 'Big Lizzies' (to differentiate) or to Crewe men, simply 'Big 'uns'.

Duchess always seemed to fit the stately postwar unstreamlined loco far better than that original much criticised "Princess Coronation".

Crewe men I remember often seemed to refer to both classes as "eights" - presumably power classification 8P rather than 8F !

dhig

[Focalplane]

Just to reply. They were called Cities around Tamworth where I spent much of my youth. But then we didn't call 3F tank engines Jinties. Horses for courses, I guess.

 

Yes there were only 38 Princess Coronations, 6257-6220. My mistake. Amazing to think that all those ten wheelers carried the rest of the load. We rarely saw Pacifics at New Street.

 

I have to admit my 5A experiences did not include conversations, I was usually being chased out of the place when Semis ruled the permanent way.

[DCB]

The concept of spare boilers really has to be a GWR thing, They had Standard boilers which fitted about 800 different locos, the LMS needed several different but almost identical boilers to cover various Jubilee, 8F stanier 5 2-6-0 and black 5 locos.  Black 5s were very well standardised, there were the 200 or so early straight throat plate black fives and the rest sloping, the early ones were as heavy as a Manor, the later ones heavier than a County.

 

But a spare GWR Std 1 boiler could do the rounds, swapped each closed season on a Star one year, then a 28XX a Hall, a Saint a Grange, or a number 4 a 43XX, a 42XX  City of Truro etc

 

The big LNER boilers seemed to be standardised in that they used the same flanging blocks and tube plates just firebox and Barrel lengths changed, short firebox A10 and A3 19ft, barrel, A4 18 ft and V2 17 ft I believe, and some 18ft barrel 250lbs A4 boilers found their way onto A3's but with 220 lbs safety valves.  The P2's A1's most A2's and W1 had the long firebox version

[ikks]

"I have to admit my 5A experiences did not include conversations, I was usually being chased out of the place when Semis ruled the permanent way." 

Semis is wot we called em!, I learned that from the Brummies(Simmays) in the "field" at Tamworth, we often got chucked out of there too , especially in the latter days, always went back though!! beat 'em in the end.   

Rgds......Mike

[The Stationmaster]

The concept of spare boilers really has to be a GWR thing, They had Standard boilers which fitted about 800 different locos, the LMS needed several different but almost identical boilers to cover various Jubilee, 8F stanier 5 2-6-0 and black 5 locos.  Black 5s were very well standardised, there were the 200 or so early straight throat plate black fives and the rest sloping, the early ones were as heavy as a Manor, the later ones heavier than a County.

 

But a spare GWR Std 1 boiler could do the rounds, swapped each closed season on a Star one year, then a 28XX a Hall, a Saint a Grange, or a number 4 a 43XX, a 42XX  City of Truro etc

 

The big LNER boilers seemed to be standardised in that they used the same flanging blocks and tube plates just firebox and Barrel lengths changed, short firebox A10 and A3 19ft, barrel, A4 18 ft and V2 17 ft I believe, and some 18ft barrel 250lbs A4 boilers found their way onto A3's but with 220 lbs safety valves.  The P2's A1's most A2's and W1 had the long firebox version

The concept of spare boilers was a practice used by most companies - the only difference was the size of the boiler 'float' related to the number of engines using a particular type of boiler and shopping intervals and so on.

[tomparryharry]

Having a boiler 'stood by' is not always an effective use of resource. If you've got a large fleet, then yes, OK. Not so if the 'fleet' is a singular locomotive.....

 

A boiler will have a yearly insurance exam (in practice, between 10 & 14 months), with an hydraulic exam at, or about, the 5 year mark. At about 10 years, the boiler will need a full overhaul, which means out of the frames. usually, at this point, the frames & motion need some looking at as well, so usually, it's a full strip down job.

 

Locomotive works used to assess incoming jobs, to determine light, inter, or heavy jobs required. Sometimes, the degree of total work would dictate if a boiler was swopped out, or repaired & returned.

 

Historically, locomotive repair has been a costly exercise, even in pre-preservation times. It can sometimes be advantageous to have a lesser supply of money, so the boiler gets done last. Having a fully certificated boiler (from a hydraulic exam) is a ticking down period, when the otherwise serviceable locomotive is sidelined for something which is sometimes trivial.

 

Ian 

[Colin]

I'm all for a spare Duchess boiler........

Together with "spare" wheels, frames, tender, cab - the "spares" could then be stored by carefully putting them all together and that way they could even be tested from time to time!

46245 City Of London anyone? Or maybe (4)6256.....

[Focalplane]

 

"I have to admit my 5A experiences did not include conversations, I was usually being chased out of the place when Semis ruled the permanent way." 

Semis is wot we called em!, I learned that from the Brummies(Simmays) in the "field" at Tamworth, we often got chucked out of there too , especially in the latter days, always went back though!! beat 'em in the end.   

Rgds......Mike

 

Strange to be quoting my own post, albeit modified.  I actually agree with the change, we called them both Semis and Cities, but strictly speaking the semi nickname no longer applied at the end of the class life.

[LMS2968]

It never applied at all: a chunk chiselled off the top of the smokebox hardly merited the term semi-streamlined!

[60800]

6229, at best will only steam as a semi I'm afraid. The NRM discussed the potential for taking her mainline with NR and DB a few years back. The answer from both parties was 'yes, but without the streamlining' on the grounds of restricted visibility. That information was freely provided by the NRM. It'll be interesting to see what happens with the one, possibly two MN's that have been slated for rebuild into streamlined form. Would this boiler idea work for MN's or the light pacifics?

[PhilH]

When they free up some space in the modern day Crewe works as owned by JH, and 4464 takes its turn in the overhaul queue, it will have a nicely overhauled boiler all ready for it.

 

BTW I believe that the current boiler on 4464 is the only unpatched one in existence....before we restored the thing at Ropley, before they even considered restoring it, I understand that the 60007 mob tried to buy it as it was in such good condition.

[Steven B]

6229, at best will only steam as a semi I'm afraid. The NRM discussed the potential for taking her mainline with NR and DB a few years back. The answer from both parties was 'yes, but without the streamlining' on the grounds of restricted visibility. That information was freely provided by the NRM. It'll be interesting to see what happens with the one, possibly two MN's that have been slated for rebuild into streamlined form. Would this boiler idea work for MN's or the light pacifics?

 

How is the view from 6229 any more restricted than any of the A4s with a mainline ticket?

 

Happy modelling.

 

Steven B.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

I suspect that goes on 'grandfather rights'. The A4s were operated in streamlined form to the end of their BR service, the LMS streamliners were not. One of the reasons cited for removal of the streamlined shroud is reported to have been tendency to obscured crew lookout.  (That also affected the original form of the P2, leading to adoption of the Bugatti front end treatment; presumably 'someone' will have to be satisfied with wind tunnel and modelling data that this isn't going to happen as there is no operational data for the class from the end of steam period...)

[Horsetan]

Flying Scotsman came with two boilers. The A4 boiler it was fitted with was in better nick than the spare A3 one so the sold it and renovated the A3 one. They could have had a usable boiler to share between the A3 and A4s. Mind you, I think the owner of Bittern bought it so they at least have it as a spare.

 

Probably the best £36,000 that Jeremy Hosking ever spent.

[Focalplane]

As a fan of the Princess Coronations, I despaired when most of them were scrapped "at a moment's notice", that two were allowed to rust for so long in salty air and that the remaining one is trapped inside a purpose built jail / archive.  All power to those who had the vision to get the two Duchesses off and running for these are the mightiest of all British steam locomotives.  Who knows how successful they could have been, both at speed records and every day demonstrations of power on the West Coast gradients.  If only WWII had never happened.

 

I feel somewhat better for that paragraph, though 46235 is still locked up with nowhere to go.

[Accurascale Fran]

 

 

I'm all for a spare Duchess boiler........

Together with "spare" wheels, frames, tender, cab - the "spares" could then be stored by carefully putting them all together and that way they could even be tested from time to time!

46245 City Of London anyone? Or maybe (4)6256..... 

 

Would love an Ivatt one myself. Sir Willam Stanier FRS reborn...