Banking

[Ray H]

Our club 7mm layout includes a DCC operated single track branch (oval), The branch (through) station is higher than the rest of the layout.

 

We plan to use a banking engine (primarily as an operational interest/challenge and occasionally out of necessity!) and have just added a dedicated banking siding at the foot of the incline.

 

Our plan of operation is for the branch train to pass the siding exit point and (probably but not necessarily) come to a stand. The banking engine siding point will change, the banking loco will leave the siding and buffer up to the rear of the train. The train and banker will then commence the climb and once over the worst of the grade the banker will drop back, stop and reverse down the bank to its siding whereupon the siding point will be reset.

 

We are using an NCE PowerCab and the handset/operator are some twenty plus feet distant from the banking siding. The exit from the siding is on a 100" radius curve but the majority of the 1:50 incline is straight.

 

Operation of the train engine seems straight forward. However, we're at a loss to establish the most appropriate way to control the banker is controlled in unison with the train engine (when required) such that it can push the train up the bank, drop back away from the train at the end of the climb, stop, reverse and return to its siding whilst the train seemingly either continues around the circuit to repeat the exercise a short while later or is itself brought to a stand either at the station (at the top of the bank) or the slightly more distant fiddle yard.

 

We've got as far as realising that both locos must be on the Recall stack so that they can be selected at will without their movement being compromised by re-selection.

 

Option 1 appears to be to set the speed of the train to the desired level and leave that to keep moving (allowing the gradient to potentially slow it down), switch control to the banker and work that as required until it returns to the siding. That seems to work unless we need to stop the train at the station because the station will be reached at about the same time as the banker gets back to the siding.

 

Option 2 suggests that we bring the train to a stand, bring the banker up to the rear, buffer up and set that in motion again before re-starting the train engine whereupon control changes back to the banker so that it can be dropped back and sent scurrying off down the hill.

 

I suppose we could simply bring the banker to a stop on the bank and leave it there briefly whilst we then stop the train in the station. We then drop the banker back down the hill and once stationary we resume control of the train.

 

Other ideas/suggestions would be welcome and appreciated. We can't see how we can use consists especially as the train engine may vary although the banker will usually be the same loco.

[cromptonnut]

I may have missed something but surely the obvious option is two operators (one for train loco, one for banker), each with a handset?  That will enable the train to carry on uninterrupted and for the banker to "drop off" and head back down the incline at the appropriate spot.  Whether you fine-tune the banker's chip so that the speed curves are similar to the train loco or simply for the banker driver to need to concentrate a bit more than usual is of course up to you.

 

I don't know what couplings you might be using on this combination but you will of course need to make sure that the banker does not couple up to the back of the train, otherwise you will have problems anyway

[Nigelcliffe]

I agree with Cromptonnut, two handsets is the simplest solution.   An NCE Cab06 is a lot cheaper than a ProCab handset.

 

Other than that, what is the problem with Consisting ?  The Lead engine is the main train loco, and the secondary engine is the banker. Create the consist as required.  You will need to speed match over the range of possible lead engines, and perhaps set the banker to have a fractionally higher speed-matched speed and a very low BEMF so it doesn't try to fight the banked train. 

 

 

- Nigel

[Ray H]

Thanks for the comments.

 

A second operator would usually be a luxury and an additional handset possibly an unwanted expense based on the limited usage - perhaps an hour or two once a fortnight.

 

We've never investigated consists and would be happy if they could be made to apply in this situation.

 

We can probably limit the number of train/bank engine combinations to reduce the number of consists required.

 

My rough explanation of our requirement is that we would seem to need to add a loco to or create a consist possibly whilst one or both locos are on the move and then remove one of the locos from that consist whilst the other loco continues moving. Is that possible? Speeds are reasonably low and the whole banking operation is probably over in under thirty seconds.

 

Apologies for my ignorance in this matter.

[Stevelewis]

Quite  a  few  years  ago  before a  house  move  I  had  a  large 00 layout in a  double  garage  which  was digitally  controlled,  I incorporated  a  gradient in  the  layout which   I used for   digitally  controlled  banking,

 

In order to achieve hands off banking,  the banking  loco  had  a  modified  Kadee coupling  The front of  the Knuckle  was  removed  so it  did not engage with  the  Kadee on the  rear  coach but  allowed  pushing.  ( I have  used Kadees on most things  fro many  years!)

 

Banking was  simple,  the  train stopped  the  banker "buffered" up  and   using 2 seperate hand  held  digital controllers,  the  banker  was set  to  around 3 or 4 speed steps  whilst at  the  same  time  the  train loco  was  set   at the number of spped steps appropriate  to  it to start it  moving,  the  train was  then  simply  controlled  up  the  gradient, at  the  summit  the  bankers  speed  was  reduced and  the  train pulled  away.  The  banker  was  then  stopped  and  reversed  back  down the  hill to  its  siding

 

 

Just a  couple  of  extra bits  of info

 

The  gradient  was partly  on  an  approx 30" curve this did not  present  any  banking  problems.

 

I have  always had 2  hand held  controllers on digital layouts,  makes  things so much  easier,  as it  allows  point control for example  to be done  without losing simultanious loco control, or  2 locos can be controlled  at the  same  time.

[cromptonnut]

You say this is a club layout.  I'm not sure how an additional controller and operator would be considered a 'luxury'?

 

The controller Nigel mentioned is only £68.50 from the first google result.  http://www.digitrains.co.uk/ecommerce/dcc-systems/low-power-starters/cab06-engineer-throttle-with-led-display.aspx which, when compared to the cost of O gauge stock, is (in the grand scheme of things) peanuts.

 

Is there not another club member with an NCE system that could even just lend you one when required? 

[Ray H]

Thanks for the continued comments.

 

You say this is a club layout.  I'm not sure how an additional controller and operator would be considered a 'luxury'?

 

The controller Nigel mentioned is only £68.50 from the first google result.  http://www.digitrains.co.uk/ecommerce/dcc-systems/low-power-starters/cab06-engineer-throttle-with-led-display.aspx which, when compared to the cost of O gauge stock, is (in the grand scheme of things) peanuts.

 

Is there not another club member with an NCE system that could even just lend you one when required?

The choice of the word luxury was probably inappropriate. We can usually only muster enough members to operate the basic layout so finding the extra just to drive the banker as a matter of routine is unlikely. We're only a small group. I'm not even sure that a second handset would be that useful if the same person had to actively use both simultaneously.

 

The layout is privately owned but group members assist the owner to operate and develop it when they're not doing other things. The rest of the layout is contained within the oval around which the branch line runs. It currently has a large stock of mainly DC locos although we are gradually developing isolated areas that can be switched between DCC and DC as required. Any funding at present is being directed towards fitting encoders to the remainder of the stock - many of the existing DCC locos are privately owned and only appear from time to time.

 

We do have other DCC controllers that we could divert to the banking role and it now looks as though that may be our only option.

 

The purpose of this thread was to see if we'd misunderstood consists and whether there was a practical way of operating two locos separately on a train with a single handset.

[RAF96]

I agree with Cromptonnut, two handsets is the simplest solution.   An NCE Cab06 is a lot cheaper than a ProCab handset.

 

Other than that, what is the problem with Consisting ?  The Lead engine is the main train loco, and the secondary engine is the banker. Create the consist as required.  You will need to speed match over the range of possible lead engines, and perhaps set the banker to have a fractionally higher speed-matched speed and a very low BEMF so it doesn't try to fight the banked train. 

 

 

- Nigel

The problem with using a consist is that you can't slow down the banker at top of hill.

[markw]

You could use ABC braking to stop the banker at the top of the incline.

This would require 2 rail breaks and 5 diodes to create a stop section and the banker would need an ABC capable decoder

[Ray H]

Thanks once again for the responses.

 

I wouldn't like to guarantee the decoder type(s) although the currently planned (usual) banker has a LokSound decoder in it.

 

I've not heard of ABC braking. Could you explain how that work in principle? Why wouldn't the train engine stop?

[big jim]

Here are a couple of vids 250bob and myself did 4 years ago (crikey!) using a single lenz 100 controller and simply switching between the 2 locos in the 'stack'

 

We never got round to doing it with 2 hand throttles but it does show banking can be done with a single controller, admittedly its a bit rough and ready in places, like the standard 4 moving before the wheels turn but its great fun!!

 

 

[markw]

Thanks once again for the responses.

 

I wouldn't like to guarantee the decoder type(s) although the currently planned (usual) banker has a LokSound decoder in it.

 

I've not heard of ABC braking. Could you explain how that work in principle? Why wouldn't the train engine stop?

The most common decoders with ABC are Lenz Silver or Gold and all Zimo decoders.

 

The diodes create an assymetrical DCC signal that an ABC decoder can detect to trigger stopping, but other decoders or decoders with the ABC feature turned off still receive the DCC signal so continue as normal.

See

http://www.dccwiki.com/Automatic_Brake_Control

Or Zimo or Lenz decoder manuals

[Sunnysa]

I have a similar situation on my home layout except there is a station at bottom of hill and a station at top of hill.

 

 The pusher (banker) is added via consist, by train operator, at bottom while train is stopped at station.

 

During an operating session train stops at station at top of incline, pusher is removed by train operator, second operator takes it over and returns it back down the hill to siding at bottom.

 

 If I am playing alone I do the whole operation myself.

 

All my locos (steam and diesel) are speed matched to 40 MPH so all locos can be consisted and run reasonably well together.

 

 This would be difficult in a club situation as each club member would have their locos set at different speeds etc.

 

 I tried consisting pushers  where lead loco and pusher were not speed or momentum matched and it was never really successful.

 

I agree, in Ray H's club environment, two separate hand controls and operators would be the best solution.

 

 As shown in Big Jims video's it can be done by one operator with one hand control. Takes a bit of practice.

 

 The reason I consist and not 2 operators is; the train enters  a long tunnel 5' after leaving bottom station, around an out of site 30" radius curve after the tunnel at the top then enters another short tunnel.

 

The train comes into site as it leaves short tunnel and enters station at top.

 

 IMO, if using 2 operators the train needs to be visible at all times so good synchronization between lead and pusher loco can be maintained specially if coupler on pusher is made so no actual coupling is made and pusher can be dropped off on the fly and train can continue unimpeded.

 

Cheers

 

  Ian. 

[davepallant]

We have a similar process on Carl Bowden's Alderford DCC layout where most movements out of the station have a loco on the front of the train and the loco that brought the train into the station sitting at the buffers. When we are running full handed we have an operator bringing the train into into the station and stopping and uncoupling the loco. Then the second operator brings in the light loco from the shed, couples it up and eventually drives the train out. The first operator then chases the train out with the light loco that has been down at the buffers. The point is at meal times or during comfort breaks one operator controls both lots of movements by having the two controllers. One controller in the right hand for the arrival loco and one in the left hand for the departure loco. The stock is not speed matched so things can get a bit hairy but generally once the operator has the green signal then the left hand accelerates the train gently out of the platform and then after a few seconds the right hand brings the spare loco out and stops it at the light which the signaller will have returned to red after the train has left. The left hand goes on accelerating the train down the layout until it is certain that the fiddle yard operator has it.

 

Because the system has two controllers then we havent tried it with one controller but it would probably be best if that controller only had the two locos in the stack option so that you can continually flip between just the two.

 

Dave

[RAF96]

The most common decoders with ABC are Lenz Silver or Gold and all Zimo decoders.

The diodes create an assymetrical DCC signal that an ABC decoder can detect to trigger stopping, but other decoders or decoders with the ABC feature turned off still receive the DCC signal so continue as normal.

Seehttp://www.dccwiki.com/Automatic_Brake_Control

Or Zimo or Lenz decoder manuals

Hornby sapphire supports DCC as well as lenz silver and gold.

Look in my gallery for how to make a lenz bm1 module