Foo Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 I've just built my first turnout tonight. I'm reasonably pleased with it too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted December 18, 2014 Share Posted December 18, 2014 Well done Foo, the first one is always the hardest! Here's a couple of pointers for you that may help future builds. From the pics it would appear the vee has been formed by equally filing both rails. It is very hard to split that angle and you may find it easier to form the crossing angle on one rail and then butt the second one up to it. Here's a pic showing what I mean... The second tip is that the really critical part of any turnout is the crossing/wing rail/check rail relationship and I would set the check rails first and then the stock rails. That way you get the correct dimension and then the outer rails can be added afterwards. The actual gauge of the track is not that critical, whereas the crossing should be accurate to ensure that stock will run smoothly. There are some more pics in my layout thread here. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/3422-eastwood-town-update/page-37 Welcome to the handbuilt track club!…. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon A Posted December 18, 2014 Share Posted December 18, 2014 Good for you! Building your first turnout is the first step away from Peco and perhaps designing your own point and crossing work to meet your situations, especially as you have access to Templot. Ian Rice's book on track work by Wild Swan is worth a read. it is also worth spending a bit of time looking at the structure and design of points at your local preserved railway, Gordon A Brsitol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkAustin Posted December 18, 2014 Share Posted December 18, 2014 Could I also put in a plug for the 2mm Scale Association book Track. The subtitle says it all "How it works and how to model it". Obviously emphasis on 2mm scale, but enough meat there for any scale. Mark A Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foo Posted December 18, 2014 Author Share Posted December 18, 2014 Cheers guys. It's a learning curve and any help is very much appreciated. I'm looking forward to building my next turnouts and escaping the limitations of peco. Started with a straight one to see if I was able to successfully build a working turnout. Seems ok so far. Just need to get my head round wiring it in to my layout (once I start re modelling it away from set track pointwork.) The main reason I have started this is because my new track plan involves a single through line at my station so I need the twin line to split to 3 through the station and I couldn't find a way to do this which looked right with rtr turnouts so had a play with templot, and a look around this forum sub section, and was amazed with what's possible. Cheers chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sp1 Posted December 18, 2014 Share Posted December 18, 2014 Well done Some good advice above Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foo Posted December 18, 2014 Author Share Posted December 18, 2014 Now im on the laptop rather than my phone i can post a pic of my planned station approach made in templot can anyone see anything obvious which would prevent this working/being do able would it be best to treat it as 3 curved turnouts or try to build the 3 as one joined unit. cheers chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted December 18, 2014 Share Posted December 18, 2014 Personally I'd build them as one unit and then cut the rails between the facing turnouts to prevent shorts after they were built. This will allow you to get really smooth flowing lines and yet you will still be able to separate them for cleaning/washing after the build. I'm right in the middle of a similar set up now…. Just out of interest are those grid lines on 1 foot spacings or something smaller? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foo Posted December 18, 2014 Author Share Posted December 18, 2014 Smaller Im sure.. it's 3.5 pages of a4 long I think. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted December 18, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 18, 2014 Hi Foo, I see from the template that you have set 00/H0 gauge in Templot. That's fine if you have a reason to match old Peco pointwork with 1.5mm flangeways. But most people making handbuilt track in 00 would use either 00-BF with 1.3mm flangeways (for RTR wheels only, gauges from Markits and SMP), or 00-SF with 1.0mm flangways (for most RTR wheels and also kit wheels, gauges from C&L - specify 00-SF). Both of those will give you much smoother running than 00/H0, and also look better. I have removed 00/H0 from the menu quick list in the latest Templot update. regards, Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted December 18, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 18, 2014 Smaller Im sure.. it's 3.5 pages of a4 long I think. Hi Foo, The default grid spacing is 150mm or 6 inches approx, which is what you have there. You can change it to whatever you prefer at trackpad > trackpad grid options > menu items. regards, Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted December 18, 2014 Share Posted December 18, 2014 Foo Well done, its great seeing someone getting started and can think of no one better to take advice from than both Martin and Gordon. The one thing I would add to the advice you have been given, especially for curved turnouts is to make the set (bend in the rail) on the inside stock rails. It is marked on the Templot templates. Also its much better on copperclad turnouts to take too much metal off the Vee rails when filing them and re-fill with solder, than leave too much metal on which will result in a deformed Vee Build as one unit as it makes for a smoother flow of rails Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foo Posted December 18, 2014 Author Share Posted December 18, 2014 Hi Foo, I see from the template that you have set 00/H0 gauge in Templot. That's fine if you have a reason to match old Peco pointwork with 1.5mm flangeways. But most people making handbuilt track in 00 would use either 00-BF with 1.3mm flangeways (for RTR wheels only, gauges from Markits and SMP), or 00-SF with 1.0mm flangways (for most RTR wheels and also kit wheels, gauges from C&L - specify 00-SF). Both of those will give you much smoother running than 00/H0, and also look better. I have removed 00/H0 from the menu quick list in the latest Templot update. regards, Martin. Hi Martin I've got the C+L Finescale 00 - track gauges (16.5mm) - 1mm Flangeway roller gauges so all flangeways will be 1mm anyway with luck all my stock will go through....I will change the scale to 00-SF before I print the biggun out. :-) cheers for the pointers, I am very much the novice here so all help and advice is greatly appreciated. Foo Well done, its great seeing someone getting started and can think of no one better to take advice from than both Martin and Gordon. The one thing I would add to the advice you have been given, especially for curved turnouts is to make the set (bend in the rail) on the inside stock rails. It is marked on the Templot templates. Also its much better on copperclad turnouts to take too much metal off the Vee rails when filing them and re-fill with solder, than leave too much metal on which will result in a deformed Vee Build as one unit as it makes for a smoother flow of rails its great to be getting started too. much nicer to be sat at my desk in the warm than in the attic with the howling wind outside and I Think i have lucked out with the advice given so far when you say about the set on the inside stock rails, do you mean to solder the inside rails first? sorry not quite up with the lingo yet :-) with the first Vee above I found that out already, took quite a bit off but managed to fill the hole with solder quite well i think and I thought the general consensus might be to build the whole thing as one. makes sense really as then it is guaranteed to fit together properly, as long as i dont mess it up while building obviously again thank you all for the help and support Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted December 18, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 18, 2014 I've got the C+L Finescale 00 - track gauges (16.5mm) - 1mm Flangeway roller gauges so all flangeways will be 1mm anyway with luck all my stock will go through Hi Chris, Oh dear, here we go again. Those gauges from C&L are for the DOGA-Fine standard, which requires all RTR wheels to be widened to 14.7mm back-to-back. That's fine if it's what you want, but I guess most beginners at 00 track building would prefer to run their RTR rolling as it comes out of the box, and without modifying the wheels so that they won't then run on any other 00 layout. RTR wheels are normally supplied at 14.4mm back-to-back in accordance with the NMRA H0 standard. With 1mm flangeways on 16.5mm track (DOGA-Fine) the span across the check and wing rails is 14.5mm, so wheels only 14.4mm apart will jam on them. If you use 00-BF or 00-SF instead, there is no need to modify the wheels. Gauges for 00-BF are available from Markits and SMP (but not C&L). Gauges for 00-SF are available from C&L. It's very unfortunate that C&L don't make it clear what they are selling, or at least not in a way that beginners can fully comprehend. See my rant about this situation here: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/64977-bakewell-peak-district-line-br-on-the-right-track/page-107&do=findComment&comment=1698517 See also here for an explanation of the gauges and settings: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/64977-bakewell-peak-district-line-br-on-the-right-track/page-108&do=findComment&comment=1698750 regards, Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foo Posted December 18, 2014 Author Share Posted December 18, 2014 arse. i did have to shift one of my check rails a bit to get the wagon in the top photos to run through. oh well you live and learn. so, gauge wise, would it be best for me to invest in the roller track gauges and check rail gauges available from http://00-sf.org.uk/?? also have had a play with templot tonight and have redesigned the twin track to triple... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sp1 Posted December 18, 2014 Share Posted December 18, 2014 arse. i did have to shift one of my check rails a bit to get the wagon in the top photos to run through. oh well you live and learn. so, gauge wise, would it be best for me to invest in the roller track gauges and check rail gauges available from http://00-sf.org.uk/?? also have had a play with templot tonight and have redesigned the twin track to triple... The gauges are no longer available from there - production of them has been taken over by C & L: just make sure you get the ones marked for 00-SF The track gauges are product code 4TGOO-SF The check rail gauges are product code 4CG))-SF If you are using curves of radius less than 3 feet you will also need a 3 point gauge for gauge widening - code 3POINTOO-SF (£25.50, ouch!). Note if you are using plain flexitrack from C & L or SMP this is NOT necessary. Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted December 19, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 19, 2014 Hi Chris, If you choose 00-SF you need to discard the 16.5mm gauges which you have now, at least for the pointwork, and obtain a full set of 00-SF gauges. Including something 1.0mm thick to set the crossing flangeway gaps (frog flangeway gaps). Don't use this to set the check rails, use the check rail gauges for that. 00-SF is 16.2mm gauge with 1.0mm flangeways. If you choose 00-BF you can use the outer slots only of the gauges which you have now. You need to obtain a pair of 00-SF check rail gauges to set the check rails. Those gauges apply to both 00-SF and 00-BF. You will also need something 1.3mm thick to set the crossing flangeway gaps (frog flangeway gaps). Don't use this to set the check rails, use the check rail gauges for that. 00-BF is 16.5mm gauge with 1.3mm flangeways. How to choose between 00-BF and 00-SF? 00-BF will run all RTR models without problems. But kit wheels will be bumpy, and the wider flangeways don't look so good. 00-SF will run most or nearly all RTR models, providing the wheels back-to-back is not less than 14.3mm. Kit wheels will run smoothly too. And the narrower flangeways look better. 00-SF is gaining in popularity for handbuilt 00 track, as the RTR models improve. As you can see from reports on RMweb. regards, Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sp1 Posted December 19, 2014 Share Posted December 19, 2014 That's a nicely concise summary Martin. I wonder if you have considered having a pinned (and possibly locked?) topic at the head of this section containing this, and the other relevant information that you regularly post all over the forum? It might save you a lot of work and would be a very good reference. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foo Posted December 19, 2014 Author Share Posted December 19, 2014 Hi Chris, If you choose 00-SF you need to discard the 16.5mm gauges which you have now, at least for the pointwork, and obtain a full set of 00-SF gauges. Including something 1.0mm thick to set the crossing flangeway gaps (frog flangeway gaps). Don't use this to set the check rails, use the check rail gauges for that. 00-SF is 16.2mm gauge with 1.0mm flangeways. If you choose 00-BF you can use the outer slots only of the gauges which you have now. You need to obtain a pair of 00-SF check rail gauges to set the check rails. Those gauges apply to both 00-SF and 00-BF. You will also need something 1.3mm thick to set the crossing flangeway gaps (frog flangeway gaps). Don't use this to set the check rails, use the check rail gauges for that. 00-BF is 16.5mm gauge with 1.3mm flangeways. How to choose between 00-BF and 00-SF? 00-BF will run all RTR models without problems. But kit wheels will be bumpy, and the wider flangeways don't look so good. 00-SF will run most or nearly all RTR models, providing the wheels back-to-back is not less than 14.3mm. Kit wheels will run smoothly too. And the narrower flangeways look better. 00-SF is gaining in popularity for handbuilt 00 track, as the RTR models improve. As you can see from reports on RMweb. regards, Martin. Thank you for that. I ordered the correct oo-sf gauges this morning and fingers crossed they'll be here tomorrow so I can start work on Sunday :-) Went for oo-sf as most of my stock is fairly new ish so should be fine, and if any of the older stuff that I like won't run its an excuse to buy new or have a play at adapting them :-) Thanks for the masses of help and advice. No doubt I'll be making more rookie mistakes soon Cheers chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffB Posted December 19, 2014 Share Posted December 19, 2014 I apologize of someone already suggested this... Another approach if you want a finer/smoother looking and operating frog, is to build the frog with the finer (1.0mm) flangeway clearance, but set the check rails with a slightly wider gap (1.3mm or whatever is required to pass the more coarse wheels). While it might seem counterproductive, it gives the advantage of having a frog/crossing that provides smoother operation (less or no wheel drop) and looks better visually, without having to reset all your wheel set back to back setting. JB Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted December 19, 2014 Share Posted December 19, 2014 Gordon S has the answer and his thread should be read If using 00 gauge flexi track you will need both 00 and 00sf roller gauges At the heal and toe ends of the turnout you need 00 gauge gauges. C&L roller gauges are fine for this At the centre of the turnout/crossing you will need the 00sf gauges as this will be built to 16.2 mm track gauge Between these two you have transition areas where the gauge changes from one to the other. Gordon has a simple to understand diagram which explains this very simply, and hopefully he will down load the diagram Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted December 19, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 19, 2014 but set the check rails with a slightly wider gap Hi Jeff, Check rails should not be set with any specific gap. They are set from the opposite rail using check rail gauges. it gives the advantage of having a frog/crossing that provides smoother operation (less or no wheel drop) and looks better visually, without having to reset all your wheel set back to back setting. Just to repeat -- if you adopt 00-SF you get the advantage of 1.0mm flangeways and you do not have to adjust all the wheels back-to-back setting. What you are suggesting is the equivalent of the situation where there is gauge-widening on sharp curves -- the check rail gap increases by the same amount as the gauge is widened -- in this case increasing by 0.3mm from 16.2mm gauge to 16.5mm gauge. But asymmetric flangeways cause problems in complex formations where check rails and wing rails are often combined in a single rail (parallel-wing crossings). For such formations gauge-widening is not possible. regards, Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted December 19, 2014 Share Posted December 19, 2014 Took a while to find it, but I think this is the pic you referred to showing the relationship between 16.2 and 16.5 mm gauge…. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 Gordon Thanks for that, a picture is worth a thousand words. This clearly shows how to build a turnout with the benefits of finer gaps through the crossing, with compatibility with commercial flexi track. For formations its up to the builder but in most cases its worth keeping the 16.2mm gauge except where the formation connects to 00 gauge flexitrack. Another tip is to cut the isolation gaps in the sleepers now and fill with filler, as its easier to sand flat now than later, that assumes you will be filling the gaps.Don't forget to check for electrical shorts before soldering Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foo Posted December 22, 2014 Author Share Posted December 22, 2014 cheers again for all the pointers, have made a start on the station approaches. have re-designed them again to make the curvature a bit sharper as the one I uploaded above would have been too shallow a curve for the space i have available. curves are quite tight with the minimum radius being some 16" radius. which is around Hornby 2nd radius so should be fine for my stock. this is how far ive got so far as i ran out of copper clad so had to wait for my parcel to arrive. which it did today so i now have the correct roller gauges too, but alas today is my girlfriends birthday and am working tomorrow and Christmas eve i probably wont get any time to carry on the work till Sunday, booo, Cheers Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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