Over-running engineering work - ticket inter-availability

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Whilst not wishing to delve into Network Rail's Christmas problems - doubtless they'll be time enough for that - one thing struck me by looking at the National Rail website.

 

Passengers wishing to travel to avoid the ECML can't use their tickets on East Midlands Trains. So if you were planning to head say for Doncaster / Leeds etc, then St Pancras wouldn't be an option.

 

I can see that EMT would want to protect its own passengers, but this lack of flexibilty for passengers in extreme conditions like those experienced today, doesn't endear occasional users to train travel.

[APOLLO]

Neighbour set off this morning Wigan NW to London. Her route is local train to Manchester, then another train to Sheffield & EMT down to St Pancras. She booked the trip a while ago, and knew of the detour.

 

I think EMT will be overloaded today.

 

Quite why major engineering works are done over Christmas / Easter beats me. Surely it would be better over weekends in late February / March or October / November ?

 

Brit15

[melmerby]

 

Quite why major engineering works are done over Christmas / Easter beats me. Surely it would be better over weekends in late February / March or October / November ?

 

Brit15

Because (so we are told) it's when passenger numbers are lowest, less regular train users.

 

 

Keith

[The Stationmaster]

Whilst not wishing to delve into Network Rail's Christmas problems - doubtless they'll be time enough for that - one thing struck me by looking at the National Rail website.

 

Passengers wishing to travel to avoid the ECML can't use their tickets on East Midlands Trains. So if you were planning to head say for Doncaster / Leeds etc, then St Pancras wouldn't be an option.

 

I can see that EMT would want to protect its own passengers, but this lack of flexibilty for passengers in extreme conditions like those experienced today, doesn't endear occasional users to train travel.

It's probably because the MML is already acting as a planned diversionary route for some WCML passengers - no good ramming even more people into MML trains when they're already likely to be heavily loaded.

[Fat Controller]

Because (so we are told) it's when passenger numbers are lowest, less regular train users.

 

 

Keith

It's about the only time you've got a three or four-day window for a blockade; Starting at close of play on Christmas Eve, and hand-back on the morning of the 27th. At any other time, you risk inconveniencing the commuters and business travellers, who are the bread-and-butter business. The only other window would be the Easter Bank Holiday. It's also a period with very little freight. Given the weather last night, I'm not surprised they over-ran; howling gales and lashing rain in our corner of the Sunny South East, with the rain turning to sleet and snow as you moved northwards.

[APOLLO]

But they had a two day window, Xmas day & boxing day and should have handed over this morning (Kings X).

 

BRIT15

[roundhouse]

A lot of the time other TOCs will honour each other's tickets in times of disruption quite often we have found they don't especially at busy times which is perhaps just when the disrupted traveller needs this.

 

However these overrunning engineering works seem to be happening more frequently so I suppose that it ends up costing other TOC's future custom.

 

Today has seen many disruptions across the Network (let alone weather issues).

 

Take for instance the London Bridge works currently on going. I am still unsure if Victoria is an option as different websites suggest different things.

 

Luckily having a Travrlcard means this isn't an issue for us ticket wise but the occassional traveller must find it very hard. Over the last week I have seen a number of travellers having arguments with staff at ticket gates regarding this.

However today there was no district or circle lines and no Jubilee line so Victoria wasn't an alternative anyway if you wanted yo get to London Bridge.

[Xerces Fobe2]

 I had better refrain from making any negative comments as I would not want to upset any Network Rail employees, so I leave that task it to the long suffering passengers and the Rail Regulator!

 

XF

[newbryford]

Apparently it's a 60 hour possession and it's overrun by 16 hours.

But have no fear - Big Jim is in there moving a crane..........

 

Cheers,

mick

[roundhouse]

There was a half hourly or so Virgin Voyager service via Banbury.

Chiltern services to and fom Birmingham were very busy today with some local stations North of Leamington Spa with bus services as the strengthened Chiltern trains couldn't stop at them.

 

Euston on the other hand was very quiet with many retail outlets closed.

Luckily that made some of our favourite pubs around there very pleasant!!!

[PLD]

Yesterday (26th) Hull Trains were diverting into St Pancras (planned), Today they are Terminating at Finsbury Park with advice to transfer to London Underground...

[big jim]

Quite why major engineering works are done over Christmas / Easter beats me. Surely it would be better over weekends in late February / March or October / November ?

 

Brit15

Because when they try and arrange blockades in the summer etc (when office type people are on holiday) everyone who thinks london is the be all and end of the UK gets up in arms and network rail have to cancel the planned blockades because of a public backlash then low and behold the blockades go ahead over christmas and people are up in arms as they cant get to London when they have to do the planned 2 week blockades work in a few days and it over runs!

 

Still amazed me passing kings cross this morning the number of people stood outside and going in

 

As for moving a crane, its been 10 hours so far and i'm no closer to moving it anywhere but it is very busy lifting point panels

[BrushVeteran]

Three of Londons major termini shut at the same time when a lot of people are making special journeys to see relatives, freinds for the Christmas break. It think it is absolutely dreadful that ticket interchangeability is not flexible in circumstances like this. Even more so we know the work has to be done but surely not from the two termini that have routes to Scotland closed at the same time!  This should have been prioritised.......................one of managements favourite quotes when you've been accused of doing something wrong!

 

My wife is pre-booked on a EC train to Grantham tomorrow afternoon and these journeys are all subject to change. I have e-mailed EC to see what the changes are but as yet still no reply. She is travelling back from France to St.Pancras tomorrow and what should be a fairly leisurely hop across the road sounds like it is going to be hell. I am supposed to be picking her up from Grantham at a pre-set time but would like a little more information from EC regarding any changes. The other alternative was for her to stay at St.Pancras and catch a train to Nottingham but as already said EMT aren't accepting EC's tickets.

 

There needs to be a big inquiry into this and somebody near the top needs to be accountable because no doubt that's where the planning came from.

 

I for one will fully support the re-nationalisation of the railways as privatisation has been one disaster after another and there's absolutely no flexibility any more.

 

Sorry if I sound a bit wound up but this situation is going to affect me slightly tomorrow and there is nobody at EC trains replying to emails......and I don't twitter or facebook!!

[BrushVeteran]

No need to be quite so over dramatic is there really?

 Well I'm sure you would if it affected you Mickey.  If you think I'm being over dramatic then think what those poor souls today must be thinking who queued at Finsbury Park then had the gates shut on them because of overcrowding.

 

A bit of planning with a watertight contingency plan would have been helpful......................which is what am am trying to do for tomorrow.

[acko22]

While I feel for people that have been caught up with the delay in works that have to happen!

It will NEVER be convenient for everyone but well there is only one way its going to get done.

 

AS for how they have handled it well it has been a little shocking really, but this is what happens when some one doesn't plan ahead and some ting has to be plucked out of the air last minute!

[pete_mcfarlane]

No need to be quite so over dramatic is there really?

 

Yesterday (so *before* it happened) the Telegraph website was leading with something like 'NIGHTMARE FOR RAIL PASSENGERS!' so this was always going to be be portrayed as some kind of national disaster irrespective of what actually happened. It is a time of slow news after all.

 

I suspect the cause of some of the issues is that Holiday travellers don't use the trains very often and need to be micromanaged in situations like this. You can't just tell them to get the tube to Finsbury Park and catch the train from there and let them sort themselves out,  as with regular travellers. 

[ELTEL]

Whenever engineering takes place on the rail or road systems in the UK it will cause travel problems, I don't think we will ever overcome that problem completly.

 

Two issues that really annoy me, is the lack of communication (1) between different engineering projects.

 

Why as reported earlier in the topic do we allow three major London railway stations to have restricted travel at the same time.

 

It should be mandatory that the other train operating companies should accept any non seat/bed bookable passenger via a any reasonable route when the planned work overruns.

 

(2) When the planned work overruns the main issue seems to be that nobody will make a decision, and tell travellers what's going on, in fear they may jeopardise the company.

 

Surely if people new what was going on it it is less likely they pursue a claim.

 

There is no excuse for either of the above to happen in this day and age with modern communications for both planning and keeping people informed.

 

Perhaps if we just had one organisation that co ordinated it all, and ran it all, and communicated with us all, for all us we would get a better transport system.

 

I know let's call British Railways.

 

Happy New Year to you all

[Dagworth]

I dont know why anybody, knowing how any buidling works can over run, and that the railway try to carry out major jobs at christmas to reduce disruption, even try to travel any distance by train on limes that "may" be still blockaded the day after......

Maybe they are people like us, who don't drive, have family that live the other side of the country, and have to be at work tomorrow. We have a choice, either we stay at home and don't see family, or we risk the trains.

 

Andi

[big jim]

I think this one comment on the bbc website sums it up for me

 

Passenger: "There were no announcements... I don't know what we're supposed to do"

 

 

Seems like everyone has to be spoon fed nowdays!

 

I somehow managed to get into london yesterday when there were no trains running anywhere bar the chiltern marylebone-bicester shuttle, even managed to get on a tube all by myself and get off at the right station, countless others managed to move into and around london without issue as well

 

to 'normals' over my side of the country virgin are the be all and end all, many dont know of any alternative routes to london, it was especially noticable when wsmr were around, however going back to today i bet a lot of people in crewe/warrington even manchester etc didnt know you could get to london via the MML, and fair dos to EMT the crewe-derby shuttles have been meridians (222 unit) instead of the booked 153!!

[Fat Controller]

Possessions can, and do, over-run , even when both track and services are under the control of a single entity. An example I remember from BR days was on the Hereford- Worcester line near Colwall Tunnel; it was a Sunday in the early 1970s, and BRSA Swansea had organised a trip to Keighley in a Swindon Cross-Country set. We left the North and West just outside Hereford, and took the single line towards Ledbury. As we rounded a curve, there was a sudden emergency brake application; there was no rail in front of us.. Strictly, there was, but it was being lifted by a gang of trackworkers, and wasn't much use to us..Apparently, they weren't aware of any booked workings on Sunday morning..

Quite often, the operators aren't aware of an over-run until the last minute; at 05:25 last Sunday morning, I was preparing my hand-over to my relief, when the signalling supervisor called across to say there was likely to be an over-run, as the trackies had been washing the site down after the night's work, had found the drain was backed up, so that the rail-head was now under water. Typically, no-one could say how long it would take to unblock, so we had to work out a couple of alternative plans very quickly..

[Gary H]

These Christmas blockades have gone very well for a considerable time now, when was the last big over run? Rugby wasn't it, some 5 years ago?

NR are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

There is so much work planned into these blockades, there is no room for error and this unfortunately includes breakdowns of machinery. Everything is reliant on key 'elements', wether that be staff, machinery, engineering trains, tools, etc. There only needs to be one of those elements to fail and that's the whole job tits up!

Couple with all that,  loads of pressure from every possible direction (DFT, Rail Regulator. TOC's, FOC's) to minimise closure days and hours, not to mention the media seizing on every planned holiday big bang. The only time there is a deafening silence is when everything has gone to plan.

To top it all off I read a piece of crap a few days ago with some MP suggesting that Christmas engineering works should be done on Christmas day only!

As they say, no gain without pain!

[newbryford]

Neighbour set off this morning Wigan NW to London. Her route is local train to Manchester, then another train to Sheffield & EMT down to St Pancras. She booked the trip a while ago, and knew of the detour.

 

I think EMT will be overloaded today.

 

Quite why major engineering works are done over Christmas / Easter beats me. Surely it would be better over weekends in late February / March or October / November ?

 

Brit15

 

Because this particular break was quite convenient to minimise the inconvenience to the real "bread & butter" commuters who use the London termini who would kick off the most. (Not my phrase, but picked up on another forum).

Starting On Thursday - they have four days. "Normal" weekends are only two days long.

Any over-run and it won't particularly affect the commuters and workers who aren't returning to work in large numbers until Monday............ (or even the week after)

 

cheers,

Mick

[Ian Hargrave]

These Christmas blockades have gone very well for a considerable time now, when was the last big over run? Rugby wasn't it, some 5 years ago?

NR are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

There is so much work planned into these blockades, there is no room for error and this unfortunately includes breakdowns of machinery. Everything is reliant on key 'elements', wether that be staff, machinery, engineering trains, tools, etc. There only needs to be one of those elements to fail and that's the whole job tits up!

Couple with all that,  loads of pressure from every possible direction (DFT, Rail Regulator. TOC's, FOC's) to minimise closure days and hours, not to mention the media seizing on every planned holiday big bang. The only time there is a deafening silence is when everything has gone to plan.

To top it all off I read a piece of crap a few days ago with some MP suggesting that Christmas engineering works should be done on Christmas day only!

I wonder how the travelling public would view your post right now. If...and thank God I'm not....I were caught up in this,I'd be demanding the head of Patrick MacLoughlin on a plate...to the tune of The Boar's Head Carol

As they say, no gain without pain!

[APOLLO]

Quick question - was Kings Cross due to reopen this morning (i.e. 2 day blockade) or on Monday (4 day blockade). If the latter was Finsbury Park designated as the turnaround station for mainline trains today & tomorrow (Sat & Sun). ?

 

A recent WCML blockade was done over a week in June couple of years ago (Warrington to Preston). Seemed to work OK back then.

 

Yes it's difficult to please everyone.

 

Brit15

[big jim]

The thing with the warrington to preston blockade was trains had alternative routes via manchester and bolton or indeed the s+c

 

As far as i know Kings cross was due to open today not all lines (as an guide my booked job today was to move a kirow from holloway tunnel up to the possession limit at finsbury park ready to head off site at 20:00) and that job was booked weeks ago, not an ad-hoc move