LNER Models in 4mm

[micklner]

Hi

Not sure as to what I am wrong about.? The Coronation colours or the comment re shades?

Paint by its nature no matter where its kept will change in shade simply from age let alone from any other enviromental effects. I have models which were boxed for 20 years when removed they had faded albeit slightly.

As to railways it must be one of the most hostile enviroments for any paint even after a few weeks exposure the shades would change.

Personally as long as its a reasonable match I am more than happy!! If you have by any chance any Humbrol LNER NCPS Brown I would love to know what colour that is please !!

 

cheers

 

mick

[2512silverfox]

I think that every effort has been made to get as near as is possible to the original. The examples given, which were matched about 45 years ago, had not been exposed to the usual elements and had been cleaned with T Cut to get back to the true hue. They were also classified using the Mansell system of colour coding which enable the colours to be reproduced now.

 

Shades do change and I have used lightened Garter Blue and Crimson on a 4mm A4 which was supposed to have been near to overhaul, and by goodness it does look different!

 

As far as NPCS Brown is concerned, the original colour from 1923 was more of a GW chocolate brown, but the colour was pretty unstable and degraded to the light umber brown in time, especially since MPCS was not overhauled and repainted that often. The first use of the 'teak' colour (HR143 I think) was the LLCK produced in 1939 or thereabouts. The works drawing actually specifies that this paint is to be used in future. However, since I model the 1930-40 period I do tend to use HR143 or Precision with varying dgrees of lightening.

[micklner]

I think that every effort has been made to get as near as is possible to the original. The examples given, which were matched about 45 years ago, had not been exposed to the usual elements and had been cleaned with T Cut to get back to the true hue. They were also classified using the Mansell system of colour coding which enable the colours to be reproduced now.

 

Shades do change and I have used lightened Garter Blue and Crimson on a 4mm A4 which was supposed to have been near to overhaul, and by goodness it does look different!

 

As far as NPCS Brown is concerned, the original colour from 1923 was more of a GW chocolate brown, but the colour was pretty unstable and degraded to the light umber brown in time, especially since MPCS was not overhauled and repainted that often. The first use of the 'teak' colour (HR143 I think) was the LLCK produced in 1939 or thereabouts. The works drawing actually specifies that this paint is to be used in future. However, since I model the 1930-40 period I do tend to use HR143 or Precision with varying dgrees of lightening.

 

 

Have you a photo of a model in HR143 as I cant find it on any Humbrol Colour Chart on the net. Or which Precision shade are you using please

 

Mick

[coachmann]

As you might expect, a thoroughly absorbing topic to me. I too would love to see what the NPCCS LNER brown looked like. Was it similar in shade to the stuff the LNE brushed over the coaches it bought from other railways such as LMS ex Mildland Clerestory's used on M&GN lines?

 

Larry G.

[ArthurK]

Colour is a very difficult subject to bring back in one's memory. However having said that I know that some of the supposed 'Garter Blue' depicted on several RTR models is totally at variant with my memories. Many are much to dark (one example was bordering on deep royal blue, a sort of light navy blue). I saw the Coronation just prior to WW2 and from about 1945 these blue coaches reappeared and I saw these (without any train designation) at York on a number of occasions. They were certainly not the deep blue often seen on models. The Garter Blue of the A4s was a quite light vibrant blue and the coaches were much the same. THe Precision Paints A4 Blue is not far from that in my memory and almost certainly the best. Having said the my paint was bought a long time ago I can only assume that it hasn't changed.

Some of the ColourRail slides show just the colour that I remember.

[2512silverfox]

ArthurK is quite right about the A4 colour. Precision is the best match, but I personally think that this is correct only for a 4mm model! Just as an aside, the original A4 Garter Blue was exactly the same shade as used by Bugatti for the French racing team that being their National colour - it was HNG's tribute to Ettoire who helped him with the airflow experiments.

 

Back to NPCS - I will dig out some photos and post them here tomorrow.

[micklner]

ArthurK is quite right about the A4 colour. Precision is the best match, but I personally think that this is correct only for a 4mm model! Just as an aside, the original A4 Garter Blue was exactly the same shade as used by Bugatti for the French racing team that being their National colour - it was HNG's tribute to Ettoire who helped him with the airflow experiments.

 

Back to NPCS - I will dig out some photos and post them here tomorrow.

 

 

A bit like this one , from this years Goodwood Festival of Speed.I have never realised the connection before

 

 

 

thanks

 

Mick

[Worsdell forever]

That's just an A4 on the road surly!

 

I had a problem about 5/6 years ago when I was ready to paint my Tyneside electric stock in wartime/post war blue & grey. Most sources state blue and grey (well I knew this) but a couple said Marlborough Blue and Quaker Grey, Marlborough blue is turquoise and no one seemed to know what Quaker grey was. Then I came across a colour shot of an A4 in central station with an electric train in the background, the colours couldn't be relied on but it was definitely the same colour as the A4.

 

This was what I decided on, Garter blue and light cream upper with Dark grey roof. I have since been told that this is correct.

 

[brown jack]

I'm glad that I've joined this site in that two errors on my site, elegantsteam.com, have now come to light. The first was as pointed out earlier in this thread, ie, the ID letters on the Silver Jubilee set were in blue. The illustrations will be corrected ASAP. The other was that, while trawling the site, I noted that I had coloured the buffer shanks of the Coronation observation car in red. So - that will be changed to black. As a matter of interest I have a very short video clip of the Coronation train in action. Only about 6 seconds in fact and the only colour film that I have seen of any of the LNER streamlined trains. And the buffer shanks of the last car are definitely black.

 

Good luck with your Silver Jubilee set, Mick. Love to see it when complete.

 

Regards

Don

[ArthurK]

As you might expect, a thoroughly absorbing topic to me. I too would love to see what the NPCCS LNER brown looked like. Was it similar in shade to the stuff the LNE brushed over the coaches it bought from other railways such as LMS ex Mildland Clerestory's used on M&GN lines?

 

Larry G.

 

In my youth LNER brown coach livery was just that, darkish brown. The same, more or less that that house doors window frames and the like were painted in those days. Totally without character. Certainly all the pre-grouping coaches that I recall were the same dark muddy brown. It was only the mainline stock that was different. Those were always in the varnished teak livery, but even that looked dirty brown after a few years in service. The Thomoson teak livery (painted) certainly brightened things up for a while.

 

As an aside I normally use precision LNER Teak paint for my models but to be honest with myself I have often thought that this was a degree lighter than reality.

[coachmann]

Thanks for this Arthur. In the 1960's I simply depended on my memories of ex GCR 12-wheel push pull coaches plying back and forth between Oldham and Guide Bridge and mixed some cellulose to match that in my memory! Later on my cellolose was matched to Precision track colour paint. Everyone said it was "as they remembered it" and I got away with it!

 

The spraygun used in the 1960's was a 'Celspray', a glass bottled scent spray look alike. Anyone else remember them? One developed deep sags across the palm of the hand after weeks of squeezing the rubber bulb.

 

Larry

[2512silverfox]

I have had a chance to look into my paint records and can confirm that there is a slight difference between Precision (was B25) and Humbrol HR143. The latter is slighly darker and between them they represent the two shades which were used at Doncaster and York respectively. For the rivet counters the Mansell references are Precision 6F7 and Humbrol 7F8.

 

Going back to the research carried out in 1965/6 at the Plant, and later at York, according to the paint shop foremen, the brown finish was employed only on those vehicles which had originally carried a different colour (NER Crimson is an example) or where on a teak vehicle it was too badly stained to be bleached back to its original finish with oxalic acid. This was rare so that most ex GN and ECJS stock remained in teak until BR numbering was imposed i.e. about 1949/50. A good example of this is the GNR full brake in the NRM. When this was discovered it had been painted with a black tar paint for departmental use. York took the job over (1975) and bleached the panels back to their original (1883) condition - the only trouble was that it cost more for the gold leaf used on the lettering, than the vehicle had cost when it was new! This vehicle is probably looking a bit darker now after 34 years in the museum, but is still a good reference point as is the Royal Train brake.

 

Originally the brown paint was mixed to a constituent recipe in dustbins, and therefore, like the wagon colours, was not exactly consistent. The paint was also matt and given one or more coats of varnish. From the late 30's contractor mixed gloss paint was used which was not so hardy but cut down the time in the paint shop. It can be seen therefore that the colours would have varied greatly during the 20's and 30's and since varnish was applied over a matt paint, the varnish darkened with age as well. There is one well known Colour Rail transparency of an A3 with a horsebox behind it in which the horsebox appears to be 'dark chocolate.'

 

I hope this helps a bit!

 

Nick Campling

 

ps There is a funny story about the GN Brake. David Jenkinson and I went to see 'Mac' who was the York paint shop foreman to dicuss the retoration. He was quite gruff and not really happy to be told by a couple of enthusiasts how he should restore a vehicle, but said he would do it however we wanted it. Having gone through with him the thirteen coats of varnish size etc, he suddenly changes his tune, and promised to do the job as it would have been done in the 1890's - and he did.

[micklner]

Hi all

I have seen the horsebox picture Silver fox mentions. It appears to be filthy and could be any colour !! certainly a dark colour.

Tatlow in a MRJ build of a Chivers ex NER Bogie CCT painted from memoryTriumph Russet Brown which i believe is a Dark Brown ? . I have the magazine in the shed, its too wet here and dark to confirm at mo.

 

 

.

Mick

[coachmann]

The ex GCR motor fitted coaches I saw in LNE brown were 12-wheelers built in 1905 (originally finished in GCR two-tone livery of the period). I would descibe the brown as slightly darker than mid-brown but was not as dark as GWR chocolate. The coaches together with converted steam railmotor coaches operated OA&GB services until around 1956 by which time they carried BR gil sans running numbers.

[micklner]

This confirms Russet Brown as a Dark Brown

 

http://cgi.ebay.co.u...029183002r24387

 

 

any likeness ??

 

 

From memory I think the first Rover 2000's used to painted in a shade called Tobacco which is a similar colour to Precision Weathered Teak I used for the Pigeon Van above.

 

Mick

[Earlswood Nob]

Hi all other Gresley fans

The Bugatti connnection was very interesting as I have often wondered why the A4's casing was called a Bugatti nose.

A piece of almost unconnected trivia is that the only pigeon van I ever recall seeing was at the SW end of Woking station and it was painted blue/grey. It was about in my student days about 1968/9. So one would fit an end of steam layout!

Off to the workbench to look for that missing piece, then Twickenham (by train) for the rugby.

Swing low sweet chariot.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

There was a railcar in service on the French railway system which had this Bugatti nose well in advance of the A4's receiving it: HNG had travelled in this and was impressed at the effect on airflow. He was generally interested in automotive and aero engineering (basically anything that went fast) a friend of WO Bentley, (a sometime Doncaster apprentice) and his house in south Herts maintains the connection with de Haviland nicely, now in use as the Mosquito museum.

[micklner]

Kingfisher now completed a re painted Hornby Mallard paired with a NRM version Flying Corridor Tender ( safety flashes have been removed from rear of tender). I am pleased how she has turned out.

Precision Doncaster Green is a good match for the Hornby LNER Green. Lined out with HMRS lining and numbers .

 

 

 

[Rob Pulham]

It looks great Mick, They are handsome machines in Green

[coachmann]

You've got the application of HMRS lining transfers down to a fine art. Looking good. What's your next project then?

 

Larry

 

 

[micklner]

Coach

 

The first two of my Silver Jubilee set are now ready for glazing, the Pigeon van just needs underframe and roof fitted .

Once there done a 247 Developments LNER TPO and a D&S GCR CCT . I then have to make a number of signals for my layout Helensdale. That shold cover the rest of this year

 

Mick

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Looks better with the straight back edge to the black than I expected, and there is just something about that green; could it be the link to the very early liveries when brighter colours were more common? One small thought, detach and hurl away the horrible Hornby loco to tender link, and substitute a shorter sheet metal linkage to get scale distance between loco and tender. Closing the gap would just 'ice the cake' nicely...

[micklner]

Pigeon van almost complete just noticed a black paint smudge on one panel and I have forgotten to glaze the ducket which will be done with Kristal Kleer tomorrow. Anyway it has had a run on my layout Helensdale today without any problems. A good value kit.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mick

[Rob Pulham]

Looks good Mick, you spurred me on to make progress on mine until i ran out of transfers now it's back on the part built pile

[2512silverfox]

Mick

 

Its a bit difficult to tell, but are the solebars in teak paint like the Gresley Coaches? They appear black, but it may be the footboards. Teak looks good.