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BlueRail Trains - Bluetooth Locomotive Control


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Maybe it's so you don't have to pay though the nose for a box of bits you don't need, when the one you're probably using to read this can do the job. Or you could look at it this way a free Bachmann pullman anyone with the cost of some DCC stations

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Exactly.  So, what is the point of bluetooth?

For who?

 

For somebody who already has a well established DCC setup and only runs their trains on that? Nothing that I can see!

 

For somebody who already has a well established DCC setup, but also runs their trains elsewhere quite a bit? Then you get a loco and dedicated handset that's portable and will work in exactly the same way on any layout he may choose to run it on, regardless of whether it's DC, DCC, or even just a plain 12v supply? That appeals to me greatly as DCC can't do that, or at least, doesn't do it well...

 

For somebody who doesn't have DCC, likes the idea of it but is put off over cost? Something that works similarly to DCC, with inherent smartphone throttles, at a fraction of the cost of an equivalent DCC setup?

 

For somebody new to the hobby? Attractive, easy, cheap, and likely to be much better control-wise than a cheap train set DC throttle, what's not to love?

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Exactly.  So, what is the point of bluetooth?

 

What is the point of Bluetooth. (this is not an appraisal of the BlueRail product just the potential of a bluetooth enabled system)

 

Chipping 30 loco's for the price of one DCC power station and cab. (assuming of course you have a PC, laptop, Smartphone or tablet).

Simplified hardware structure. No requirement to buy additional interfaces so as to create a control link between a computing device and the DCC system 

Easier set up (software can be designed to reflect what we understand rather then asking us to learn a particular functionality)

Cheaper control hardware (throttles) that potentially offer a better utilisation of hard earned money spent by being capable of being used for other tasks.

Full 2 way communication between Loco/points/lights and controlling device

Easier multi throttle set up 

more versatile sound options

 

Curent DCC advantages over Bluetooth control.

 

Generally available.

 

 

What is interesting about the BlueRail offering is that it is quite happy to run on your DCC layout (although not under DCC control). So not requiring a full changeover between systems. How many people put off the transition between DC and DCC because of the steep adoption price (However for those running DC there would still be an investment to be made as running a Bluetooth loco on a DC layout is only possible at full track power, so unless the layout has separate power districts, just having the one Bluetooth fitted loco would be limiting). There is no limit to the number of BlueRail fitted Loco's that may run on a DCC layout (other tun the limits of the layout power supply). So there isn't a requirement to bin your DCC system wholesale.

 

Out of interest anyone here looking to buy a Lenz system and approximately forty Lenz Gold and Silver chips??????? Should be available for collection later this year.

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What is interesting about the BlueRail offering is that it is quite happy to run on your DCC layout (although not under DCC control). So not requiring a full changeover between systems. How many people put off the transition between DC and DCC because of the steep adoption price

I note that the cost of dcc on my side of the Atlantic is up to a factor of 2 lower, as I don't pay VAT at 20% and prices are generally lower here.   It sounds as though there is potential for Bluetooth control to provide significant competition to dcc, which might lower prices for dcc, or obsolete dcc control over time.

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I note that the cost of dcc on my side of the Atlantic is up to a factor of 2 lower, as I don't pay VAT at 20% and prices are generally lower here.   It sounds as though there is potential for Bluetooth control to provide significant competition to dcc, which might lower prices for dcc, or obsolete dcc control over time.

 

Assuming that Bachmann/BlueRail's foray into this gains enough inertia and uptake. It's difficult to see a continued market position for DCC as a leading control technology. There is no piece of DCC functionality that can not be emulated by a Bluetooth based system similar to the BlueRail proposition and more importantly, not be presented to the user at a cost equal to or noticeably less than the comparative DCC option. DCC's biggest drawback is that it is a proprietary system of hardware. Software control is essentially secondary to the  hardware. Where as the BlueRail system (and whatever manufacturers follow on) is for all intent and purposes a software centric solution.  However it is the software aspect of train and layout control that is going to attract new entrants to layout automation and gain the attention of current DCC users who feel that the level of hardware investment and know how to achieve a comprehensive and exciting software based control system using their current DCC equipment is beyond them.

 

Personally I was quite taken by "TouchCab". However to achieve what is in reality just a more elegant replacement for my Lenz wired throttle, requires an additional investment of around £150. And that really is all it is, a more elegant throttle. With the BlueRail offering I'd hazard a guess that same £150 investment would buy me five bluetooth enabled loco chips and the iPhone/ipad App, A reasonable dent in the changeover costs for my own loco collection and the start of a move across to a system with more control potential.

 

There will always be those who through preference will stick with a particular methodology whether that be down to cash or intellectual investment, familiarity or just plain acceptance that it works well enough for them......... and they are all fine and acceptable reasons to do so. Life is about freedom of choice. However I think it certainly doesn't bode well for DCC as a hardware option. I wouldn't be at all surprised if those people who are currently involved in developing software applications for DCC control are monitoring this issue closely or are presently looking at adapting their existing packages with the prospect of implementing the Bluetooth communication protocol.

Edited by Nile_Griffith
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What is the point of Bluetooth. (this is not an appraisal of the BlueRail product just the potential of a bluetooth enabled system)

 

Chipping 30 loco's for the price of one DCC power station and cab. (assuming of course you have a PC, laptop, Smartphone or tablet).

Simplified hardware structure. No requirement to buy additional interfaces so as to create a control link between a computing device and the DCC system 

Easier set up (software can be designed to reflect what we understand rather then asking us to learn a particular functionality)

Cheaper control hardware (throttles) that potentially offer a better utilisation of hard earned money spent by being capable of being used for other tasks.

Full 2 way communication between Loco/points/lights and controlling device

Easier multi throttle set up 

more versatile sound options

 

Curent DCC advantages over Bluetooth control.

 

Generally available.

 

 

What is interesting about the BlueRail offering is that it is quite happy to run on your DCC layout (although not under DCC control). So not requiring a full changeover between systems. How many people put off the transition between DC and DCC because of the steep adoption price (However for those running DC there would still be an investment to be made as running a Bluetooth loco on a DC layout is only possible at full track power, so unless the layout has separate power districts, just having the one Bluetooth fitted loco would be limiting). There is no limit to the number of BlueRail fitted Loco's that may run on a DCC layout (other tun the limits of the layout power supply). So there isn't a requirement to bin your DCC system wholesale.

 

Out of interest anyone here looking to buy a Lenz system and approximately forty Lenz Gold and Silver chips??????? Should be available for collection later this year.

 

I note the cheaper throttles point has cropped up again, although this time it's plural.

 

Since this blue product was mentioned originally as helping youngsters in an earlier stage of the hobby, I wonder how many smart phones have to be in the household when your two kids and four of the neighbours' stop by. Ditto for an adult operations evening on a larger, more sophisticated layout.

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While I see the possible benefits in control, for a lot of people one of the major things  with DCC is sound that moves with the loco. 

 

Until they produce this system with onboard sound it will not replace DCC for those people because I don't think they would be happy with the airplay solution.

 

I have previously tried using stereo  speakers on a PC under a layout and was not impressed. The sound of the loco coming from one or two places when its actually 12 feet away is pointless.  Static systems need lots of small speakers around the layout with sensors to detect loco position and move the sound accordingly. The Pricom system can do this. ( I think the  Soundtraxx as well)

 

I'm not anti airplay I use it to four rooms in my house.

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What's the point of building the physical layout? You might as well just build the layout on a simulator. I want to see and hear what my little trains are doing and use levers and switches to do it, when I can hear or feel what I have just asked to happen, not keep checking that my last set of messages have been "computed". I do use basic DCC but mainly for the sound and simple wiring. I work everything else mechanically or using DC switches and motors. I don't want to be more "efficient" and I don't want to have to keep looking at or touching a keyboard and screen - I might as well be back at work if I did.....

 

I can see the point of on-board power, one day, so that we don't have to rely on track power, but that's another thread.

 

I am trying to recreate great, dirty and oily three dimensional, electro-mechanical monsters moving along, in their 3D surroundings, in miniature, not simulate them like in a video game. I want to control what they do, not rely on pre-programmed gizmos that do it all for me. Is that modelling? (I can see the point of some of that for busy layouts at shows or exhibitions, but that's about all.) But. for most if us, what is the point of all this remote, dehumanising digitalisation???

Edited by Mike Storey
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While I see the possible benefits in control, for a lot of people one of the major things  with DCC is sound that moves with the loco. 

 

Until they produce this system with onboard sound it will not replace DCC for those people because I don't think they would be happy with the airplay solution.

 

I have previously tried using stereo  speakers on a PC under a layout and was not impressed. The sound of the loco coming from one or two places when its actually 12 feet away is pointless.  Static systems need lots of small speakers around the layout with sensors to detect loco position and move the sound accordingly. The Pricom system can do this. ( I think the  Soundtraxx as well)

 

I'm not anti airplay I use it to four rooms in my house.

 

This isn't intended as a dig..... just a bit of light hearted banter.

 

So by what I understand of it, most DCC sound chips are loaded with recordings (samples) of loco's. These recordings taken (if recent) by a microphone's placed in proximity to the loco. Some I am led to believe are taken from archive recordings of various formats. These are then blown on to a chip where both storage and audio quality are the first compromise and then replayed from a speaker/s set into the underside of the loco. As an audio engineer who has both film and TV credits to his name. The word lash up springs to mind. So the notion of a preferred directionality to the sound coming from a layout smacks of polishing the proverbial........... Sorry but the whole DCC sound thing amuses the socks of me. I've seen guys at exhibitions mull the inaccuracies of Heljans 86, to levels that would put a rocket scientist to shame, then go all girly because someones class 20 made a sound approximating a F@rt in a tiled privy............... Go figure!!

 

BlueRail have announced that their initial foray into Bluetooth will eventually utilise "Airplay" for the replay of Loco sounds. I would guess that this is a market consideration on the part of Bachmann/Bluerail rather than a technical limitation of the Bluetooth technology. As I've tried to mention through all my previous posts, this really isn't a question about one manufacturer and their venture into Bluetooth based control, but the potential of the technology and how we might expect to see other manufacturers/suppliers develop the technology to suit our modelling needs. Who is to say that Lenz may not enter the market with a Bluetooth device? They have the motor and accessory control side  pretty sorted, it would be a case of marrying those components to a Bluetooth chip rather than a DCC chip (simplistically speaking). Or maybe in an attempt to retain customer base, they release a "translator" chip. A bluetooth chip that plugs into the NEM socket of your loco, but in turn has an NEM socket that your Loco's existing DCC sound chip plugs into. The Bluetooth chip providing the required DCC signal to the old chip and the board dealing with the connection to lights, speakers, pick ups etc.

 

The word I constantly use for this is Potential....... and there is a lot of it..... to suit a wide range of modelling interests and needs. personally I can't wait.

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What's the point of building the physical layout? You might as well just build the layout on a simulator. I want to see and hear what my little trains are doing and use levers and switches to do it, when I can hear or feel what I have just asked to happen, not keep checking that my last set of messages have been "computed". I do use basic DCC but mainly for the sound and simple wiring. I work everything else mechanically or using DC switches and motors. I don't want to be more "efficient" and I don't want to have to keep looking at or touching a keyboard and screen - I might as well be back at work if I did.....

 

I can see the point of on-board power, one day, so that we don't have to rely on track power, but that's another thread.

 

I am trying to recreate great, dirty and oily three dimensional, electro-mechanical monsters moving along, in their 3D surroundings, in miniature, not simulate them like in a video game. I want to control what they do, not rely on pre-programmed gizmos that do it all for me. Is that modelling? (I can see the point of some of that for busy layouts at shows or exhibitions, but that's about all.) But. for most if us, what is the point of all this remote, dehumanising digitalisation???

 

I guess that as well as the grit and the grime, some modellers would also like to emulate the infrastructure also (from a modern image point of view).

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I note the cheaper throttles point has cropped up again, although this time it's plural.

 

Since this blue product was mentioned originally as helping youngsters in an earlier stage of the hobby, I wonder how many smart phones have to be in the household when your two kids and four of the neighbours' stop by. Ditto for an adult operations evening on a larger, more sophisticated layout.

 

 

Ahhhhhh but that, young Padwan learner is the beauty of it!! It just needs to be a Bluetooth enabled device that is capable of running some form of control software. So rather than worrying about having multiple, Lenz, Rocco, ECoS or Marklin handsets, or Wifi enabled smart phones or tablets running a certain proprietary software. It is fairly open access.  

 

In your example of having the neighbour hood kid round. One could be utilising a laptop while others are using iPads or Hudl's you might have a couple of kids with iPhones and one who has an LG smartphone. They don't necessarily have to all be running the same App on their respective devices. What you would need however is a pretty good sense of agreement between everyone as to who gets to drive which Loco and who does what etc........... But then isn't that part of the fun?

Edited by Nile_Griffith
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I guess that as well as the grit and the grime, some modellers would also like to emulate the infrastructure also (from a modern image point of view).

 

I appreciate that, but what real train is driven by a mobile phone or PC screen (other than a few yard shunters)? True, many modern trains and power boxes use computerised interfaces, but many trains drivers (including my brother before he retired) and signallers (of whom I have met hundreds in the course of my former work) say their jobs, in such circumstances, are now quite boring as result. Is that what is being emulated?

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I note the cheaper throttles point has cropped up again, although this time it's plural.

 

Since this blue product was mentioned originally as helping youngsters in an earlier stage of the hobby, I wonder how many smart phones have to be in the household when your two kids and four of the neighbours' stop by. Ditto for an adult operations evening on a larger, more sophisticated layout.

I would have said it's far more likely for your visitors to be carrying a smartphone of some description than £150 of Lenz (or whatever) throttle.

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I appreciate that, but what real train is driven by a mobile phone or PC screen (other than a few yard shunters)? True, many modern trains and power boxes use computerised interfaces, but many trains drivers (including my brother before he retired) and signallers (of whom I have met hundreds in the course of my former work) say their jobs, in such circumstances, are now quite boring as result. Is that what is being emulated?

Which ones are driven by dcc handsets?

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While I see the possible benefits in control, for a lot of people one of the major things  with DCC is sound that moves with the loco. 

Until they produce this system with onboard sound it will not replace DCC for those people because I don't think they would be happy with the airplay solution.

I have previously tried using stereo  speakers on a PC under a layout and was not impressed. The sound of the loco coming from one or two places when its actually 12 feet away is pointless.  Static systems need lots of small speakers around the layout with sensors to detect loco position and move the sound accordingly. The Pricom system can do this. ( I think the  Soundtraxx as well)

I'm not anti airplay I use it to four rooms in my house.

I agree with everything said by 10000.  I just worry that such a bluetooth sound locomotive cannot be made out of a dcc sound locomotive at reasonable cost, even though I can imagine lots of ways of doing it.  Is the market for such modified locomotives big enough to design and sell conversion parts, sort of like we can convert a dc locomotive to dcc sound now?  We know that present dcc sound has been expensive enough to justify the introduction of the abominable TTS sound!  I think the market for such conversions is there.

 

Maybe I will not survive this world long enough to see the demise of dcc sound, so it does not really matter!  Now there is a way out...

Edited by rgmichel
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I appreciate that, but what real train is driven by a mobile phone or PC screen (other than a few yard shunters)? True, many modern trains and power boxes use computerised interfaces, but many trains drivers (including my brother before he retired) and signallers (of whom I have met hundreds in the course of my former work) say their jobs, in such circumstances, are now quite boring as result. Is that what is being emulated?

 

I'm not aware of any of the smaller gauges having an availability of model steam loco's that actually work with prototypical steam engines or for that matter diesel engines. I guess by your observation then the only true railway modelling is pursued by those who model overhead line layouts who in turn derive power via the wires.

 

Our particular hobby is by it's own purpose, the pursuit of compromise and adaptation so as to realise an image of something that interests us and that we can invest something of ourselves in. As for chasing some kind of modelling Nirvana. If honest i have better things to do with my time.

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Since my locos/trains are mostly1920's electric prototypes, my ideal simulated operating controls are a seat with a dead man's handle and a separate service brake valve lever.  Very un-smartphone.

 

Add a TV monitor in place of the windshield and it becomes much more realistic.

 

That's why I find these "smartphones are where it's going" and "sound is the big thing" threads personally frustrating.

 

Once you realise the potential of wireless to send back the operators view, then you really want the sound at the control console, not at the model.

 

That fixes all the "not good enough" and directional sound technical issues  completely!

Edited by Andy Reichert
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The question of 'why people model' and what aspects of modelling interest individuals comes into this too. As already pointed out, the Bluetooth system looks as has potential to fulfil many different needs and levels depending on the software developed for it. I imagine it would even be possible to develop physical more tactile controllers for those who want them. . Some may argue that is not the point of the system but if the market is there......

 

As to the cost, I wonder how much the apps (and there will, I'm sure, eventually be more than one) might actually be? It will be a totally different business model to the game app sold at 69p to thousand of people. Just look at the range of cost already - from high end like Traincontroller Gold all the way down to open source material like JMRI and Rocrail.

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As to the cost, I wonder how much the apps (and there will, I'm sure, eventually be more than one) might actually be? It will be a totally different business model to the game app sold at 69p to thousand of people. Just look at the range of cost already - from high end like Traincontroller Gold all the way down to open source material like JMRI and Rocrail.

 

Guess this is one of the big unanswered's at present. In my own profession we see app's that are created by manufacturers to enhance the operability of their products (Usually remote operation of kit such as digital mixing desks and monitoring of radio mic receivers etc), being offered free of charge or for as little as 99p. There are then the more involved App's provided by independent developers that themselves offer some kind of standalone functionality. Their charges can be anything from a couple of quid through to may be thirty or forty pounds.

 

What I have noticed is that over time. The number of available App's has increased markedly, while the average cost has dropped significantly. It has got to a stage where because a particular App may cost around three pounds I'm happy to buy it, just so as to evaluate it's potential use even though I might well own an App offering the same sort of functionality. I'm guessing that for a solo developer, the earnings potential to creating and publishing an App for Loco control might be appealing. Globally there might well be a demand of say ten or twenty thousand downloads. Attach a return to the developer of three pounds on each App purchase, that then equates to around thirty to sixty thousand pounds of income. This return has to be set against development time etc, but you start to see how the App market place could become something in our favour.

 

At present the DCC manufacturers don't have much of an incentive to bring us continually improved and  feature rich control options (it's possibly fair to argue that the DCC system itself has little potential to move beyond where it already is). You make your choice of which system to buy and to a degree you are locked in and because setting up that link to the computing world is another expensive investment and presents a significant technical leap for some, entrants to that stage are fewer and therefore market potential smaller. Creation of App's or full blown software for desktops and laptops, becomes a much more open market under the Bluetooth regime. As it becomes easier for new developers to come in with new ideas and existing developers to look to hold onto their market share by creating further ideas and improvements. 

Edited by Nile_Griffith
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.................. Who is to say that Lenz may not enter the market with a Bluetooth device? They have the motor and accessory control side  pretty sorted, it would be a case of marrying those components to a Bluetooth chip rather than a DCC chip (simplistically speaking)...................

 

 

 

Lenz have, or are about to.  Or at least something similar, I don't know whether the wireless is bluetooth.  They have come up with something called a Lokschüssel (loco key), which will be supplied with every Lenz gauge 0 loco.  You can find some information on www.digital-plus.de/insight.php#faq183; this is in German (I can't find an English version) but there is a picture.  The text says that you simply put the loco onany track and off you go; the nature of the electricity on the track is irrelevant.

 

In an interview done at the Nuremberg trade fair, which you can find on the website of the Modellbahnshop Lippe, Bernd Lenz says that the system was developed because quite a lot of his customers did not want to use DCC since they found it too complicated, so the aim was to come up with something simple.  He clearly does not at present see it as a rival to or possible replacement of DCC.

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.................. Who is to say that Lenz may not enter the market with a Bluetooth device? They have the motor and accessory control side  pretty sorted, it would be a case of marrying those components to a Bluetooth chip rather than a DCC chip (simplistically speaking)...................

 

 

 

Lenz have, or are about to.  Or at least something similar, I don't know whether the wireless is bluetooth.  They have come up with something called a Lokschüssel (loco key), which will be supplied with every Lenz gauge 0 loco.  You can find some information on www.digital-plus.de/insight.php#faq183; this is in German (I can't find an English version) but there is a picture.  The text says that you simply put the loco onany track and off you go; the nature of the electricity on the track is irrelevant.

 

In an interview done at the Nuremberg trade fair, which you can find on the website of the Modellbahnshop Lippe, Bernd Lenz says that the system was developed because quite a lot of his customers did not want to use DCC since they found it too complicated, so the aim was to come up with something simple.  He clearly does not at present see it as a rival to or possible replacement of DCC.

 

 

Not sure that it comes with every O' gauge loco. I read it as being an option. But essentially it reads as if you buy the Loco with the control device built in and it comes with its own remote. So if you have six of these equipped loco's you have six individual remotes. Interesting that at the end it makes note that you can run a loco fitted with "LocoKey" on a DCC track but under Loco 0 control.

 

Would be interesting to know if this is using a Bluetooth communications protocol or whether Lenz have decided upon a proprietary system of their own utilising one of the other licence free radio bands apportioned to device communication.

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DCC's biggest drawback is that it is a proprietary system of hardware. Software control is essentially secondary to the  hardware. Where as the BlueRail system (and whatever manufacturers follow on) is for all intent and purposes a software centric solution.  However it is the software aspect of train and layout control that is going to attract new entrants to layout automation and gain the attention of current DCC users who feel that the level of hardware investment and know how to achieve a comprehensive and exciting software based control system using their current DCC equipment is beyond them.

In what way is DCC proprietary? I don't see many open source bluetooth control systems for Model railways. The level of investment required for layout automation will vary little whether the commands are sent via the rails or through the air. The software is just as complex and the hardware required to instrument the layout will end up being just as complex and costly as it is today.

 

At present the DCC manufacturers don't have much of an incentive to bring us continually improved and  feature rich control options (it's possibly fair to argue that the DCC system itself has little potential to move beyond where it already is).

That will explain why the European manufacturers have made little investment over the last few years then.

 

You make your choice of which system to buy and to a degree you are locked in and because setting up that link to the computing world is another expensive investment and presents a significant technical leap for some, entrants to that stage are fewer and therefore market potential smaller. Creation of App's or full blown software for desktops and laptops, becomes a much more open market under the Bluetooth regime. As it becomes easier for new developers to come in with new ideas and existing developers to look to hold onto their market share by creating further ideas and improvements.

You don't think manufacturers of bluetooth system will find a way to lock you in? I think you are being very naive. At the basic control level, DCC does not lock you in at all. Decoders are interchangeable and mix and match with any control system. It's only when you get to throttle busses and control busses that there is significant differentiataion. Even then, you are locked into a particular technology rather than a manufacturer.

 

You can connect a computer to a DCC layout (direcct to the rails) for the same cost as a high end decoder. DCC control is then just "software"

 

Andrew

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A DCC's biggest drawback is that it is a proprietary system of hardware. Software control is essentially secondary to the  hardware.

  • I am not sure about this statement.   Proprietary implies closed and secret standards from one company, while the standards required for a dcc layout are open to everyone, internationally, to allow all the manufacturers to make things that will drive any locomotive made under these standards.  Its the whole reason I can buy British outline OO locomotives, and buy dcc equipment in the USA that works with them.
  • We should not accept Bluetooth as competing with dcc.  Bluetooth is a wireless networking, communications, protocol that governs how devices talk to each other.  Of course, it does not contain dcc protocols, but it could be interfaced to devices that do use dcc protocols.
  • I am assuming Bachmann is presently using Bluetooth outside the dcc standards in their new product, but I do not know this.  When I talked to their rep he seemed to imply that Bluetooth control of dcc locomotives is being worked on at Bachmann.   If Bachmann is building something that is proprietary then this is a play to cut out dcc.  This is not a good thing.  If the Bluetooth technology is not used ultimately to control dcc locomotives, then it is likely a non-starter for me.  We would have the long drawn out dc/dcc thing written again, as I said above.
  • The software aspect and iOS control is a point of discussion because iOS devices have Bluetooth built in already, and has nothing do do with existing software that controls our dcc locomotives.  Sure iOS software could replace our existing software for dcc control of locomotives, but this is not related directly to the Bluetooth protocol nor the dcc protocol.  Its not really a core part of the present discussion.
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