C Butcher & co

[dana]

Came across three guage 1 goods trucks by c butcher & co probly 1 guage . Metal trucks 'axles and buffers wooden under frame . And buffers . Any info out there on this company ?

[dana]

here are the photos of these cars im talking about 

 

sorry about the back ground antique store

Edited March 23, 2015 by dana

[Mark Carne]

Hi dana,you have found a pretty obscure maker from the past,not many people know they even existed.

 

C,Butcher & Co were based in Franklin Road,Watford,Hertfordshire,before and during WW1. Watford was almost the centre of the model railway universe at the time,as a couple of other manufacturers (Baldwin & Wills and Carson) were based there then,as was Henry Greenly,who was at the time,Britains most prominent model designer,having links with all the Watford based firms,Bassett Lowke,Stuart Turner,the Model Engineer magazine,and at that time,editor of his own magazine,Models,Railways & Locomotives.

 

I have a Butcher catalogue from 1912,and a friend has a fine gauge 1 Midland Railway,999 class,4-4-0 loco,which is illustrated in the catalogue,but anything Butcher is very rarely seen.

 

They ended as an independent concern in 1916 when they where absorbed into the Bassett Lowke empire,Watford ceasing to be centre of the model railway world by then,as the other firms had gone out of existence,and Greenly had moved to Farnborough to work at the Royal Aircraft Establishment.

 

Cheers, Mark

[Nearholmer]

Another Watford maker who advertised in MR&L c1914 was Ball, I think.

 

Butcher also originated the line of fine-scale LNWR signals in 0 scale, which became much better known under the Bassett-Lowke label, and they certainly produced locos with the "boiler motor", as illustrated by Greenly in his book on model electric railways, c1911.

 

K

[Victorian]

I know I'm posting in an old thread, but these things take time!

 

I thought you might like to know of some Butcher news. A Butcher G2 loco came up in the SAS auction before Christmas. Well here it is now:

 

 

It's an 'Abergavenny' built to a very high and almost dead scale standard by the unknown (to me at the time) firm of C. Butcher &Co in Watford, quite possibly in late 1910 when the prototype came out. The paintwork shows the effect of long storage in a not always dry place, maybe since the First World War, depending on who the original owner was....

 

 

It's powered by a Greenly 'boiler motor', a wound field arrangement of startling inefficiency, requiring 4A running current! Originally 3 rail with plunger pickups, it's now running from 3 x 18650 Lipo cells, as used in the Tesla car, giving about 30 mins run time, with a protection PCB, giving 11.1 volts which is just enough.  The Esc is micro Viper.

 

 

Notice the 'reversing engine' at right. This has been replaced for now by a bridge of Schottky diodes while I investigate means of re-magnetising the original mechanism. But the loco is running on the original motor, which sounds a little like a petrol engine in operation! Here's the reversing engine cleaned up:

 

 

The track is made from an amazing bundle of Bonds FB rail, probably for 2 1/2" gauge, that I acquired at the G1MRA Midland group AGM which turned out to be exactly sufficient for a 20' x 40' circle, mounted on hardwood sleepers in 3' lengths with stainless screws. The loco needs 10' radius anyway. I still have some points (G1, but convertible) and rail left for sidings. I've acquired a fair bit of rolling stock over the years, all very cheaply, and have the 6 (yes, six!) Carette coaches that came with the loco from SAS.

 

As you can see, the loco paintwork presents a dilemma: It's very poor, but still original, and I'm reluctant to touch it. However, the other side tank was missing and I had to make a replacement (thanks to Malcolm High) so new paint will be needed. I also made a new intermediate gear (I've noticed many antique locos seem to have missing gears, perhaps because people play about with the motors). This one I made in 3D sintered nylon courtesy of Shapeways and so far it's stood up fine:

 

 

 

Next up: the G2 Carson 'Precursor', which I got to the stage of running on a piece of straight track a few years back. And a Jubb G2 Atlantic, which I acquired privately in completely pristine condition, although unlike the Butcher and the Carson, it's not a scale model.

 

Note: there are lots of G2 models around and my track is designed to be portable -it just slots together with LGB rail joiners. Maybe we could get together someplace when the present emergency is over and brush the dust off some of those unique and historic artifacts?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 29, 2020 by Victorian

[Nearholmer]

Hello again, good to see that the resurrection continues.

 

Kevin

[claughton1345]

It's probable that Watford became a centre of the pre-WW1 model railway simply because it was where Henry Greenly lived.

 

Butcher & Co were near Watford Junction, Henry Greenly living just one station away near to what is now Watford North station on the St Albans branch line. 

 

Carson on the other hand was based in Cricklewood which one thinks of as being near the Midland Railway, albeit the main lines are quite close together as they converge on London.  Carson seems to have made a decent quantity of models going by the number that survive.

 

Stewart-Turner was based in Henley on Thames; the Greenlys often visited the Stewart Turner's socially at week ends, which probably accounts for the Carette water tower being based upon the GWR example at that station.

 

Whereas Carson & Co made nothing smaller than Gauge 1, Butcher & Co catalogued its models down to Gauge 0.  Given the very few survivors, I get the feeling that Butcher was, at least regarding their locomotives, producing one off models  to specific order.

 

I have a Butcher 0 Gauge LNWR 4-6-2t which is made to an incredible standard for those days, having rivet and bolt detail around the smoke box,  lubricator pipes and even the superheater damper lever.  Butcher also catalogued the GCR 4-6-2t - such large locos being necessary because the smallest of the available boiler motors fills the body (and cab!) completely.  In my case, the motor and reverser still work, though the weakness of the pre-WW1 permanent magnet in the reverser means that it does not reverse until about 6 Volts have been applied, resulting in the loco starting off in the same direction as it was previously running, despite the polarity having been reversed with the intention of reversing the loco.  The motor itself has a wound field, so it runs as well as ever, just like contemporary wound field Bing locos, there being no issue of fading permanent magnets to worry about.  This loco must have been made for one of Greenly's wealthy acquaintances at the Model Railway Club, High class Gauge 0 was very much a minority interest prior to WW1, those with the money tending to live in spacious houses with, at least, a redundant Billiard Room allowing Gauge 1 or above to be accommodated indoors.

 

From memory, the Butcher 0 Gauge LNWR 4-6-2t cost Gns. 12 which was not a trivial sum at the time, perhaps being equivalent to £2-3000 today, the price of batch-built brass 0 Gauge locos made in the far-east.

Edited August 1, 2020 by claughton1345

[Victorian]

Hello Claughton.

 

I'd really like to know if the Gauge 2 'Abergavenny' is in Butcher's catalogue. Here's a more recent picture, showing how I've dressed it up in a vinyl wrap (remains of Butcher's green colour scheme still present underneath.) It's towing the Carson 'Precursor' by the way, which is proving to be a demon of an engine, but likes to run the boiler dry. Abergavenny is by far the best of my G2 loco's, mainly due to the modern '540' motor which has replaced the boiler motor for now with a pin compatible installation.

 

 

Currently I'm working on the G1 Carson flash steam 'Experiment'. This model is very well worn, so it must have worked (and worked hard) once upon a time. Hopefully it will again. The coil is intact although it needed quite a bit of tweaking to get it to fit inside the ceramic insulation I'm using, suggesting it had drooped through intense heating. (The original asbestos was helpfully removed by the first time I saw this model, more than 20 years ago). The coil was blocked, but amazingly still had water in it, allowing me to flash the original feed water and detect the location of the blockage which I cleared with brass wire. Here it is.

 

 

If anyone has seen, or has any knowledge, of running these flash steamers I'd be very pleased to hear about it. This one has it's original meths lamp (I know it's meths and not petrol because Crebbin said so in his 1922 article) and the chassis runs on air.

 

 

I've just bought a new fire extinguisher, so not too many more excuses...

 

[Nearholmer]

The vinyl wrap certainly looks a treat.

 

Is it easily removable?

 

[Victorian]

Quote

Is it easily removable?

Yes, depending on the grade. Some vinyls are branded 'permanent', but will still come off with hot a air gun. This one is 'peelable'. The vinyls available for home printers are even less adhesive and have to be glued at the edges, but are great for getting the geometry right before going to a professional printer for the final result. These vinyls are used on full size trains like Eurostar, so they have to stay on but come off when needed.

 

The Carson engine also has a vinyl wrap, but the colours are all skewed due to biassing for a home ink jet printer and the line thickness, based on Carson's original paint job, is far too heavy due to the much higher colour density of the vinyl compared with paint. This vinyl has stayed on despite the meths burner in this engine being prone to flare-ups. The next version will use near scale line thicknesses and true LNWR colours, a departure from Carson's practice, but you have to stop somewhere....

[Florence Locomotive Works]

On 01/08/2020 at 15:27, claughton1345 said:

It's probable that Watford became a centre of the pre-WW1 model railway simply because it was where Henry Greenly lived.

 

Butcher & Co were near Watford Junction, Henry Greenly living just one station away near to what is now Watford North station on the St Albans branch line. 

 

Carson on the other hand was based in Cricklewood which one thinks of as being near the Midland Railway, albeit the main lines are quite close together as they converge on London.  Carson seems to have made a decent quantity of models going by the number that survive.

 

Stewart-Turner was based in Henley on Thames; the Greenlys often visited the Stewart Turner's socially at week ends, which probably accounts for the Carette water tower being based upon the GWR example at that station.

 

Whereas Carson & Co made nothing smaller than Gauge 1, Butcher & Co catalogued its models down to Gauge 0.  Given the very few survivors, I get the feeling that Butcher was, at least regarding their locomotives, producing one off models  to specific order.

 

I have a Butcher 0 Gauge LNWR 4-6-2t which is made to an incredible standard for those days, having rivet and bolt detail around the smoke box,  lubricator pipes and even the superheater damper lever.  Butcher also catalogued the GCR 4-6-2t - such large locos being necessary because the smallest of the available boiler motors fills the body (and cab!) completely.  In my case, the motor and reverser still work, though the weakness of the pre-WW1 permanent magnet in the reverser means that it does not reverse until about 6 Volts have been applied, resulting in the loco starting off in the same direction as it was previously running, despite the polarity having been reversed with the intention of reversing the loco.  The motor itself has a wound field, so it runs as well as ever, just like contemporary wound field Bing locos, there being no issue of fading permanent magnets to worry about.  This loco must have been made for one of Greenly's wealthy acquaintances at the Model Railway Club, High class Gauge 0 was very much a minority interest prior to WW1, those with the money tending to live in spacious houses with, at least, a redundant Billiard Room allowing Gauge 1 or above to be accommodated indoors.

 

From memory, the Butcher 0 Gauge LNWR 4-6-2t cost Gns. 12 which was not a trivial sum at the time, perhaps being equivalent to £2-3000 today, the price of batch-built brass 0 Gauge locos made in the far-east.

I think I may have just bought a Butcher engine, or the remains of one.

 

Its O gauge, obviously very old and the quality appears second to none. It’s supposed to be a GNR c2 4-4-2. 
 

These are the sellers photos as I don’t have the engine yet.
 

 

 

 

 

 

If anyone would be able to aid identifying it I’d very grateful
 

Douglas

[J. S. Bach]

33 minutes ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

 ...snip...

Douglas

Now I see the drag beam (mentioned in another thread) and completely understand the principle and how it is used.

I suspect that some kind of tender-drive could be used to make this a useful engine. I do like it, was it on ebay?

EDIT: Are the wheels insulated?

 

BTW, this a good start on the EM-1 but I think that you will be needing a few more axles!

Edited April 28, 2022 by J. S. Bach
To add a question.

[Florence Locomotive Works]

58 minutes ago, J. S. Bach said:

Now I see the drag beam (mentioned in another thread) and completely understand the principle and how it is used.

I suspect that some kind of tender-drive could be used to make this a useful engine. I do like it, was it on ebay?

EDIT: Are the wheels insulated?

 

BTW, this a good start on the EM-1 but I think that you will be needing a few more axles!

As far as me and the other people who know more about this stuff can figure out, it was tender drive, I think I’ll keep it that way. 

[Nearholmer]

You sure it’s not an unfinished symphony live-steamer, maybe meths fired to a burner fitted in the ash pan area?

 

More clues may emerge if you’ve got the tender with motor in it.

 

Apart from obvious finesse, what suggests to you that it is Butcher?

Edited April 28, 2022 by Nearholmer

[Florence Locomotive Works]

22 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

You sure it’s not an unfinished symphony live-steamer, maybe meths fired to a burner fitted in the ash pan area?

 

More clues may emerge if you’ve got the tender with motor in it.

 

Apart from obvious finesse, what suggests to you that it is Butcher?

I’ve ruled out live steam as the chap I bought it off (eBay) bought it thinking it was live steam and apparently it isn’t. You can also tell as the cylinders have no glands and no pipework. 
 

It doesn’t have a tender though so we can’t be sure. I’m thinking it’s Butcher though as I’ve been in contact with @Victorian who owns a Butcher engine, and the construction is very similar and the spring hangers are basically identical.