Templot and Ingenious counter intuitive thinking

[Junctionmad]

This is a follow on from a  few posts in Johns Turnout thread, where  in a comment to Martins " horrors" comment , I made the point that Templot is brilliant but aspects of its operation are counter intuitive in Modern GUI programming 

 

Lets me first state I am a fan of Templot and have spent many hours attempting to master it.  its truly an incredible facility for hand built flowing track work construction. Hence this thread is an abstract discussion responding to martins comments that he cant see what else he might do in that area. 

 

IN modern GUI design & style  guides, typical of Windows and MAC, the primary paradigm  is "select and action", this was a move away from the pre-gui days of "action then select ", you can see this clearly in AutoCad, whose designs predate modern GUIs, for example , in Autocad you first select an action and then you select the one or more items the action pertains to.

 

Note I leave aside any issues about specifically designing  complex track work, cause irrespective , that requires an investment in time 

 

SO newbies arriving to Templot have several non-intutuive concepts to get around 

 

1. Mouse selection of templates in a design is not intuitive, rather then simply clicking to bring a template into play ( and then contextually performing actions on it ) , you actually have to engage in a keyboard orientated swap type process, This tends from , newbie conversations, to result in duplicate templates hiding under current ones etc 

 

2. The issue of storing , retrieving , making control , etc of templates is not obvious , nor is it similar to concepts in other GUI programs.  

 

Heres what I suggest as an alternative 

 

 

A. mouse click to make the selected template the control , no further action is necessary , no duplicates are made, simply the selected template ( via mouse click on any part of that template ) activates the template for " actions "

B. Either by right click , bringing up a contextual popup menu , giving common actions , or select an action from the menu bar , the action then occurs on the selected template 

C. All actions continue to apply to the selected template 

D. Users can save the active template  to a store in the same way , or select multiple templates by way of standard " extended select " methods, such as "shift click".  IN theory the right click menu, then apply actions to ALL selected templates ( or a subset as practical ) 

E. Block select by standard hold down mouse and draw a containing rectangle , would also make multiple template election easy

 

 

all in the spirit of fun, no templates were harmed in making this thread 

 

PS: a timber moving "wizard" would however be an awesome addition !!!!

 

Dave 

[martin_wynne]

Here' what I suggest as an alternative 

 

 

A. mouse click to make the selected template the control , no further action is necessary , no duplicates are made, simply the selected template ( via mouse click on any part of that template ) activates the template for " actions "

 

Hi Dave,

 

That option is already available as make-on-click mode. The toolbar turns orange to indicate it is in force:

 

 

The clicked template becomes the control template, and the existing control template is stored. A right-click shows the template's full menu.

 

The snag is that almost everyone who has tried it didn't like it. It makes some things very tricky -- working with overlaid partial templates for example.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[Junctionmad]

it would seem you have thought of everything , martin 

[martin_wynne]

it would seem you have thought of everything , martin 

 

Hi Dave,

 

Over the years I have tried most things, and we have ended up with what works best for me. But that's just me. I know I tend to see things differently from many folks.

 

When using other software I have noticed the way things are done, and tried some of them. Or determined never to have anything remotely similar.

 

For example in many programs when you select an object, grab handles appear round it. And Templot works that way on the sketchboard (the engine for that was written by Nils Haeck). But it is totally impractical for the control template because there are simply too many possible mouse actions. Also there are times when you want to use a mouse action when zoomed in a long way (so that the handles would be off-screen) or when the control template is very long and can't be all on the screen at a sensible size.

 

But thanks for your suggestions, I do think carefully about all comments from users.

 

One constraint is that I use only the Windows Common Controls so that Templot will work reasonably well on WIne under Linux/CrossOver for Mac users. So some of the fancier modern controls such as those from DevExpress aren't an option. And please don't mention the dreaded Microsoft Ribbon.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[Junctionmad]

My comments were really based on what Ive read from feedback from newbies, I think the template/control paradigm  confuses people and typically leads to duplicated templates, terminology probably then gets the better of them too. It is a program where you need to invest considerable time to master it ( as opposed to dabbling ) 

 

shoving timbers  wrecks my head though , on a big layout its very time consuming !!!!!

 

agree re WCC , but as a mac head , whats Windows again !!

 

Have you considered what will happen when you are too old to care   

 

dave

[martin_wynne]

Have you considered what will happen when you are too old to care

 

Will anyone still have home computers and printers in 10 years time?

 

With the Internet Of Things, presumably you just shout at the 3-D printer "Print me a cheese sandwich, and then make me a B-7 turnout on 5ft radius".

 

Martin.

[backofanenvelope]

Nah, I don't think so as there are still loads of tasks tablet/phablets can't do and commerce is still tied to the PC. I for one still like my laptop over a tablet but Im sure that most of joe public will change to one over the next decade in some way. but look at how many now are using CAD proficiently and have the desire to.. Templot will still be here in another decade Martin if you want it to be!

[Simond]

It better be, given the tortoise-like progress on my layout!

[Junctionmad]

Will anyone still have home computers and printers in 10 years time?

 

With the Internet Of Things, presumably you just shout at the 3-D printer "Print me a cheese sandwich, and then make me a B-7 turnout on 5ft radius".

 

Martin.

Yes , and if it's Siri based , you'll most likely get bread with nickel silver and a B7 with sleepers made from cheese