Simond Posted February 14, 2017 Author Share Posted February 14, 2017 Phil, Yes I have the article from the IRS. Unfortunately it's not really big enough to use. I have a GA, looks like a scan on PDF, which includes a plan and side elevation, but unfortunately, no end views. These would be hugely useful, as I'm about to redraw the engine frames & cylinder formers. A pal of mine will pantograph mill them for me from the masters I'm going to laser cut. If you have any drawings, I'd be very grateful. Today, I'm doing the smokebox saddle, and the cab platework. The insulated hornblocks and springs arrived today, as did the silver solder paste. Awaiting hornguides, gearboxes & motors. Meanwhile, plenty to keep me entertained! Best Simon 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted February 15, 2017 Author Share Posted February 15, 2017 (edited) Well, I put the smoke box saddle together tonight, didn't have a lot of time, and given that there's no locating tabs of any sort, it's a singe-the-fingers special, grade #1. Anyway, having put it together, I was gratified to find that it fitted neither the frames (it's far too narrow/loose) nor the boiler (as the flanges override the transverse plates with the radius cut in them, and are thus too close together). A number of options present themselves, but it's looking like more scratchbuilding. At this rate, I'll have both a loco, and a complete kit of parts that I didn't use to build it... Best Simon Edited February 16, 2017 by Simond 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rue_d_etropal Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 Backwoods miniatures do an OO (4 mm scale version of this loco) - Slightly over scale for you, but it may work http://www.backwoodsminiatures.com/stdgauge.htm thanks for link, but I am currently more interested in HO scale, and designing for 3D printing. Body would not be that tricky to design, just finding suitable motor chassis(r2r as I don't build chassis). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giles Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 Simon, I seem to recall I used the underside of the smoke box as a jig for mine. Certainly there were gaps at the corners, but I think I backfilled these. ....another assembly that isn't straightforward..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilMortimer Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 (edited) I don't recall having a major problem with mine, apart from the afformentioned singed fingers. Like Giles, I used the completed smokebox as a former. Mine also fitted into the cradle quite closely - is the spacing of your frame longtidudinal girders correct? I remember it being a PITA of a job to get everything set up square in all three dimensions when assembling the cradle frame. At this rate, I'll have both a loco, and a complete kit of parts that I didn't use to build it... I have come to view this kit as more of a "scratch-aid" than a kit. Still, most of the castings are nice..... Edited February 16, 2017 by PhilMortimer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Alex Duckworth Posted February 17, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 17, 2017 Following a mention of the 4mm Backwoods kit I thought that I'd post a photo of mine. The kit fits together very well in this scale and was, I thought, quite an easy build. The brakegear is changed to better represent the arrangement on "William Francis" and the model has both chassis compensated and re-gauged for P4. Alex. 16 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted February 17, 2017 Author Share Posted February 17, 2017 Alex Thanks for posting your picture. I hope mine looks as good when it's done! Best Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted February 17, 2017 Author Share Posted February 17, 2017 Phil, Just got back to the bench for a short spell. Work does get in the way sometimes... The frames are 38.4 wide inside at the front, and 38.2 at the rear. And the saddle is 37.99 at the fat end... and it's not supposed to have a fat end And the slightly surreal, arty shot shows how the curved bits of the saddle are prevented from touching the smokebox by the flanges. It also cruelly shows that my rivets are not always as straight as they should be. My excuse is that with etched depressions the size of the Tycho crater, I should have soldered the frontplate to a strip of brass, and fitted it to the X-Y table of the rivet press, but I didn't... So now I will make a pair of spacers to move the endplates outboard by a little less than half a mil, scorch my fingers, swear prodigiously, file it to fit the gap and then see where we are. Might solder the cab together too. On the upside, the gearboxes, hornguides and hornblocks have arrived, as has my terrifyingly expensive restock order for 10, 12 & 14BA screws, washers and nuts. Still, it'll last a while... Best Simon 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilMortimer Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 (edited) I think I see the problem. If I recall, the smaller bits of the saddle (the bits with the crater sized riivet half etches) go between the curved crossbeams, not on the outside as you have it. It is not obvious in the "instructions" and I had to experiment to get it right. This should make the saddle sit down on the smokebox better. I can check my locos tonight after work. However, it will also increase the gap between the frames and the saddle. I guess you takes your choice..... BTW, I looked and my version of the MOSI GA dawing only shows a side and top elevation as well. There were some end elevation drawings in Giles Article in NGIRM and I think he had some hand drawn ones in his thread, showing the differences between the various versions of this loco, that may be of use. OK off to do some work now. Hope to get back to my own loco's late next week. P Edited February 17, 2017 by PhilMortimer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilMortimer Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 (edited) Following a mention of the 4mm Backwoods kit I thought that I'd post a photo of mine. The kit fits together very well in this scale and was, I thought, quite an easy build. The brakegear is changed to better represent the arrangement on "William Francis" and the model has both chassis compensated and re-gauged for P4. Alex. IMG_4929.jpg Very Nice! Lovely weathering! Edited February 17, 2017 by PhilMortimer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted February 17, 2017 Author Share Posted February 17, 2017 Thanks Phil, Well, I soldered a flat plate as a "floor" between the curved formers, so they stayed aligned, then I removed one of the riveted bits, and soldered a bit of etch waste to the inside of the vertical bit, then resoldered it to the formers. Ditto-repeato other side, clean, polish, and file down until snug between the frames. The sides are outside the curved formers. Incidentally the real ones are too. If they shouldn't be, on the model, it means the saddle will be too short, front to rear which would be a shame as it now fits quite well, both to the frames, and to the smokebox. I have soldered two short lengths of brass angle to the inside of the frames to support & locate the saddle. It all seems to fit ok! Best Simon 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilMortimer Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 I know that mine came out at the correct dimensions (as according to the GA) so I'm not sure why the difference. I will have to look closely at it when i get back from work tonight. I just remember thinking at the time that it went together suprisingly well for this kit! So easy, i didn't take any pictures of the assembly process! Still, since it fits, that's the main thing! There are plenty of other things with this loco to exercise one's ingenuity! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giles Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 (edited) Deleted- I see you've sorted it! Edited February 17, 2017 by Giles Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Focalplane Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 Deleted- I see you've sorted it! ? If that was my, hopefully whimsical post about the smokebox, then I apologize. But you might PM me if so, then I will remember to never post again. Best wishes, Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giles Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 ? If that was my, hopefully whimsical post about the smokebox, then I apologize. But you might PM me if so, then I will remember to never post again. Best wishes, Paul No, no... I I simply hadn't read Simons post properly - and I see he's actually done the job! And my observation was unnecessary! Sorry about that! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted February 17, 2017 Author Share Posted February 17, 2017 Gentlemen I'm confused.... Please don't be shy! (Whimsical, cynical, whatever) Best Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Focalplane Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 Dear Giles, Simon There has obviously been a misunderstanding. I posted what I thought was an amusing comment on post #33. Either it was never posted by the system or it was removed by the system once posted, whichever I don't know. At the same time there was a reference to having removed a different post, hence the confusion. I apologize for contaminating what has become a useful flow of information on an interesting build. Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted February 18, 2017 Author Share Posted February 18, 2017 Paul, No apology needed, I never saw your post, hence my confusion! I think Giles posted some advice re the smokebox saddle, which he then retracted, seeing that I'd done it - again, no issue to leave it there, as it might have been an alternative that helped someone else. Like I said, all comments, suggestions & criticisms are welcome, particularly if they help! Best Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted February 18, 2017 Author Share Posted February 18, 2017 (edited) latest update.... After a pleasant evening at the Leas Cliff Hall, watching "the Illegal Eagles" (personally, about 6/10, they've nailed the guitars, but the voices don't quite cut it for me), I'm bright eyed & bushy tailed, whilst madam is enjoying a well-earned weekend lie-in. This is an ideal opportunity for a bit of soldering, as getting the lathe out is likely to result in a disappointed expression from upstairs... So the cab: As Giles had previously remarked, it's not b****y symmetrical (my qualifying adjective). I had previously adjusted the roof edge, so it is now a constant radius, and the centre of that radius lies on the centre plane on the loco. Boringly conventional, I know. I'd also done the riveting. So, no tabs again... Then I had this brainwave, I've never seen it before but it is staggeringly simple & utterly obvious, as befits the occasion. Welcome to "Simon's Simple Soldering Support". Please PM me to submit the royalty cheques Small offcut of timber, two perpendicular sawcuts, jam bits of brass into slots to align, and hold them. Solder without burning fingers, simples. "Houston, we have a problem..." The firebox wrapper is the etch supplied with the kit. I have redrawn it and need to print, stick to the brass, cut, drill & pimple to suit, but I'm using the kit one at the moment. It's wrapped around the former and tacked on, it's currently supported by a bit of wire soldered across under the frames. It is marginally too high, reference the cab windows and the alignment hole in the former and the cab front. And it's not high enough to clear the top of the boiler, which you will recall, is now the right diameter. Reference to the various photos and drawings suggest that the firebox cleading should be only about 1-2" above the boiler top, unfortunately there isn't a dimension on the various plans I have, and I will scale it on the CAD later, but it's considerably less than 3". We're probably aiming for ~ 1mm, maybe less. The cab roof inside is 7'5" (and an unreadable fraction, might be 1/16") above the footplate - this scales as just shy of 52mm, for which the kit is bang-on. So, the boiler mounting is too high... I recall others have mentioned this. Time for a ponder, and some careful measurements. Best Simon Edited February 18, 2017 by Simond 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted February 18, 2017 Author Share Posted February 18, 2017 I know that mine came out at the correct dimensions (as according to the GA) so I'm not sure why the difference. I will have to look closely at it when i get back from work tonight. I just remember thinking at the time that it went together suprisingly well for this kit! So easy, i didn't take any pictures of the assembly process! Still, since it fits, that's the main thing! There are plenty of other things with this loco to exercise one's ingenuity! Phil, Scaling off one of the drawings I have, the smokebox saddle comes out as 16.91 long, which tallies pretty well with the saddle as I've built it, i.e. with the sides outboard of the ends, mine is 16.97, I suppose I could rub it down a bit... 16.91 mm is 2'5" to a surprising degree of accuracy, and looking around the loco, there are lots of dimensions ending in 5", curious, throughout my career in engineering, most designers use whole numbers or sensible fractions thereof, and given it was designed in feet and inches, the working assumption would be X' 6", X' 3", etc., but this guy must have thought differently... Best Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted February 18, 2017 Author Share Posted February 18, 2017 (edited) And the measurements reveal... The top of the boiler should be 38.37 above the footplate. The top of the firebox should be 0.82mm above that. Please forgive the spurious accuracy; these dimensions are picked from CAD lines superimposed upon the JPG drawing imported into the CAD and then shrunk to scale size. They're about as good as I can get them, but as I'm unlikely to model to 1/100 of a mm, (even on a good day ) they will be rounded off at some point - as late as possible. And, given the multiplicity of dotted lines, there's a risk I'm measuring from the wrong one... On this basis, the boiler, which is just under 38mm diameter, should fit, but it is really rather tight, both at the saddle, and on the cross beams which I added. They will need to be relieved a little, and the saddle lowered. But... The footplate etch is a single piece comprising the actual footplates, which on the real loco, are cantilevered out from the frames, and three parts joining the actual footplates together. Two of these parts have the pivot holes for the engines, and the third is the large square bit with four large round holes in, which supports the brake assembly. The kit didn't provide cross frames for this, but having been alerted, I was able to make these and add them. The drawings show this plate to be below the level of the footplate, by a tad less than 2mm, which, of course, would allow the boiler to sit comfortably below the top of the firebox cleading. I think I can wangle it in, but if it all gets too stressful, I'll simply cut the footplate and lower the plate by 2mm, and solder it back between the frames. Of course, this begs the question of why the model was designed this way - it surely would have been easier to make the longitudinal frames as single pieces, rather than the two parts that you try to solder edge to edge above and below the footplate. In this case, you'd join them with folded spacers, which would have been easier to assemble, and then cantilever the footplates out from the sides, JLTRT. But there's always more than one way of skinning a cat. Think I'll pop down to John's, and roll the cab roof - which reminds me, it's not the right size... at least, according to the drawings, there should be an overhang, front and rear, of about 2.1mm. But the photos show the roof being a much tighter fit to the cab sheets, so maybe it's ok. It does need a bead, but I'll make that after I've rolled it. I want to make it removeable for cab detailing, so it needs to fit nicely in any case. Best Simon Edited February 18, 2017 by Simond Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giles Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 All good progress thus, but did you catch the square hole in the cab back-sheet for the coal shute? It's off centre, and unless dealt with it will stop the hind engine from turning.... Like your soldering jig! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted February 18, 2017 Author Share Posted February 18, 2017 Didn't spot that, thanks Giles. An easy fix, at least! I've just turned a 3mm thick washer of brass to form the spigot onto which the barrel will be placed, I'll drill & tap the firebox former to fix that as I have with the connection to the cab. This I'll have an assembly of cab, firebox, boiler & smokebox, which I can adapt the frames to fit... More later! Best Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilMortimer Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 I seem to remember that when I assembled my loco's, I ignored the alignment hole in the cab front and firebox rear, as when lined up, the boiler / firebox was off center as well as being the wrong height. I built the boiler / firebox up seperately as one unit, getting the alignment right there, then added the saddle to the smokebox, before installing in the frame. Once the cab was installed to the frame ( and centered!), the boiler was positioned, aligned at both ends, clamped in position and then the firebox soldered to the cab front and the saddle to the frames. This also stiffened up the cradle, which up until that point, was quite flexible. This class of loco suddenly seems to have gotten a lot of well deserved attention. Maybe when we're all finished building up our respective loco's, we can get them all together in one place for a garratt-fest! Looks good simon yours is going to be a fantastic model! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted February 19, 2017 Author Share Posted February 19, 2017 (edited) Thanks Phil,The alignment holes in mine actually seem ok, they're central and the relationship between firebox top and cab front seems reasonable.Hi, all, and welcome to the next exciting instalment....Rolled cab roof, and soldered extremely heavy brass washer to front of firebox.Unfixed washer, as boiler was wider than firebox.Growled.Made new firebox wrapper.Had brainwaveSoldered new wrapper over old wrapper.Refixed washer with 12BA bolts.Stripped thread.Growled some moreFixed thread by simple expedient of applying nut inside firebox (which now has an open bottom)Assembled boiler, firebox & cab.Found very slight gap between cab sides and footplate.Examined bottom of boiler - when you roll a boiler, unless the metal is over length, or you put a sacrificial bit in (and I hadn't done either of these) there will always be a short tangent length at the ends. Despite pressing it firmly whilst soldereing the tube, it formed a ridge, which I filed down, and Lo, it looks like I have a reasonable assembly of frames, cab, firebox, smokebox & boiler!Now all I need to do is make the b****y smokebox saddle fit, and drill & tap the smokebox to fix it down. Similarly, I'd like the cab to be removeable, so that needs some screws too.But this does look rather like a stage has been reached!I think I'm quite pleased with myself! Edited February 20, 2017 by Simond 8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now