Jersey Railway, tiny 2-4-0 tank

[relaxinghobby]

 

Starting to add the details, guard irons and brake hangers. Some errors appearing, like my bloby soldering.

 

You see the brake hanger supplied with the kit, it's just hanging from the wire in front of driving wheel. I've already cut som of it's detail off. How to proceed, in what way to add the wooden brake blocks, see the photos above in Edwardian's post, they are sort of big triangles, I could just fix on some appropriate shape to the hangars.

 

 

Also I've got hunt through my box of bits and decide which motor and gearbox combination to use.

 

PS is it hangars or hangers?

[Nearholmer]

Hangers, I think. Aren't hangars what aeroplanes live in?

 

Brakeblocks: you could think about making them similarly to the real thing. A strip of iron (brass), and a big (very small) lump of wood.

 

I've done it in 16mm/ft, and I appreciate that doing the same in 4mm/ft is a great deal more fiddly, but you seem to excel at very fiddly work.

 

A suitable close-grained hardwood is beech, and the easiest sources of tiny bits of that are wooden clothes pegs, and broom handles.

 

Kevin

[relaxinghobby]

 

'Been mucking around trying out ideas for the breaks, triangular bits of wood on the prototype, the hangars in the kit are for a more modern iron style that you'll see on most heritage steam railways. Brynkits provide parts on the etch to model them in profile, just a flat shape in the right outline is all that is needed in this scale. Here is a piece a piece of paper stuck on to try the shape out. Not much detail is needed, it is a very small and obscure part really, in 4mm scale it will be hidden away in shadow under the footplate.

 

 

To look right, especially at viewing distance, all that is needed is the right texture or amount of lumps suggesting detail, just enough to satisfy the eye, some sort of balance between everything modelled and a bare bones model.

 

This is the stage of modelling I don't like so much once I've got the main part working, these details don't do anything for the running, they can get in the way, on the model the brake rigging is outside the wheels and will hamper fitting and fiddling with them. I think I need to try to fit motors and gear boxes first, in this tiny model finding space to hide them is the big next problem. But then this will break away from the assembly schedule listed in the quite reasonable instructions, not a good move as this can lead off into a dead end or branch line in railway terms or up against the buffers with no reverse to, mangle the metaphor a bit more.

 

Second thoughts on the brake, the paper is just stuck on with UHU and seems quite secure, I cold just solder up the metal parts and when the wheels and motor are sorted, just stick on paper brake shoes, after painting no one will know, just readers here, and the paper is slightly flexible and won't get in the way of removing the wheels so much?

[relaxinghobby]

 

 

I've been soldering on some narrow strips of nickel silver to extend the wheel guards, these strips are bits of scrap etch from other kits, or I could see if pre-cut strips can be purchased from a model material supplier.

 

I don't think I need to buy a gear box I have several different types in stock.

It's a case of robbing Peter to pay Paul, I'm looking through my “to build one day” kit parts to find a suitable gearbox.

 

The requirements are to get the motor as low as possible as the prototype has a very low boiler.

 

Gearbox on the left is a High Level one and the right hand is from Markits. You can see yet more blobby soldering on the guard irons, there might be a problem with the central cross member on the chassis getting in the way of the motor. I could cut it out and replace it with a new one lower down. Maybe make a representation of the ash can between the wheels at the same time.

 

All the motor gearbox combination are meant for much bigger models, this one is very small, how do 009 modellers do it?

 

Which ever one I use will require some sort of modification.

It's fit and fiddle time.

 

I did build a cardboard mock-up of the body a few years ago, it will be handy for checking motor clearances, I can't find it yet.

Edited July 27, 2017 by relaxinghobby

[relaxinghobby]

 

 

Cut and tweaked the central stretcher to allow space for gear box, the one between the two driving axles. I used a fine bladed piercing saw for this. Might still have to remove it completely to get a motor in? Depends on where the gearbox holds the motor, how high or how low.

[relaxinghobby]

 

A David and Goliath shot where the usually considered small GWR 517 class tank is the giant. Shows just how small this loco is going to be. That's why size wise, it's down in the narrow gauge league for how to cram a motor in.

Edited July 29, 2017 by relaxinghobby

[relaxinghobby]

 

I've found the cardboard mock-up, one I prepared earlier. It was to check the body size on another Brynkits chassis I had started a while back. My first attempt at making the small Sharp Stewart tank Haro Haro. It was based on their TT scale GWR Metro tank, a proper 2-4-0 tank chassis compared to the one in this thread but too big for this model. To get the tanks to cover it's longer wheel base I had to make them over length, this upset the look and proportions of the model and it lost it’s essential cuteness, it looked too elongated. So that project stalled.

 

 

Width, just how was Haro Haro, the drawing is just a side elevation and no end view, so we don't know how wide, I will have to work out what looks right from photos, we know two dimensions for sure, the gauge of the track the loco is sitting on and how wide apart the buffers are. On the cardboard version I've made it 32mm over the width of the footplate, which is looking are too wide.

 

How to do the curl on the top edge of the tanks? On the picture on the David and Goliath post the green 517 tank has curved tops to the bunker, so it is possible, it's just that I can't remember how I did it?

Edited July 29, 2017 by relaxinghobby

[relaxinghobby]

 

 

Fit and fidgeting parts around, what will fit and what will work mechanically. I folded up this Markits gearbox, it went together very well, it may be a bit to tall for this model but there is some scope to cut the top off the gearbox without weakening it too much.

 

The scrap of paper is a pattern for a new metal ash can underneath an between the wheels. It will act a new stretcher to replace the one at the top, that will have to go to get let the motor sit down lower in the chassis.

 

 

 

[relaxinghobby]

 

 

Mangling the chassis further to get the motor to sit down lower.

 

At the back of the chassis the rear stretcher has an upside down triangle cut from the front with a piercing saw to get the rear corner of the motor lower. Hope I have not mangled the chassis too much and the wheels will still turn smoothly.

 

You can see the modifications made to the top of the gear box, that is it's cut down and bent over and soldered , trying to reduce the height. This model has a very low boiler.

 

The worm and gear wheel are offset slightly to allow room for the grub screw ( to the left in the photo ), I've only just noticed this and had to move one of the top hat bearings by de-soldering it and turning it around and reposition it on the outside of the box. Now I can run the gear box under power, the solder tags on the back of the motor are tiny, I wish they were bigger it seemed that bringing a hot soldering iron to them risked melting the plastic motor case. Scary stuff, especially at the price of the motors these days.

[Northroader]

Going back to your brake blocks, I usually make them from copper clad fibre glass strip, as for sleepers. This files up easy to shape and can just be soldered into position.

[relaxinghobby]

Thanks Northroader for the brake block tip, I'm getting close to that step, I may try it but filling up 2 identicle pairs might be beyond my skill.

 

 

Up on it's wheels with the motor and gearbox fitted, all turns over smoothly but is it all compact enough to fit in the tiny body? Time to fiddle with the cardboard mock up again.

 

 

Fitting the wheels is fiddly, the axles have to be threaded into the chassis, through the gearbox and any spacing washers needed. There is a 20 thou' spacer on one side of the gear wheel and both axles have a 10 thou' spacer on the outside of the chassis to take up sideways slop between them and the chassis sides.

 

 

 

The Markits 46:1 gearbox is designed for at least three sizes of motor. This one comes with a 1.5 mm hole in the worm so it can be used with smaller motors. There are three pairs of motor fixing screw holes. The two large ears are the problem for me, obviously meant for a larger motor stick out too far to fit in my proposed loco body. Do I cut them off? If I do the future usablability of the gearbox is compromised. But if this model is a successful build it won't become a hulk to be slowly stripped of parts for future models.

 

 

The combined picture shows the motor screw hole options, I've used the small inner one that I had to open up with a rat tailed file.

[relaxinghobby]

 

All this soldering seems to have stiffened up the chassis a tiny bit, it seems to start under power only when the knob is a bit further round from where it was. Is that friction causing that?

 

 

Time to try out the rolling road. This is what I designed and started years ago but in my usual style work stopped at about 90% of completion. It's built around three rolling road units I got from a second hand stall way-back, don't know the make.

The end raised sections of track are matched in height to the top of the rollers and hopefully there's a wide enough section to get any loco I wish to work on in unless I build one of those Russian 2-14-0s. I't just a sandwich of plywoods and balsa, PECO track and just lying there is an old fashioned moving coil meter I what to hookup to measure the starting and running electric current or amps as a guide to friction in the wheels and coupling. The theory being; current draw of motor is approximately equal to friction. Parallel or series, how do I hook it up and calibrate it, something to with a shunt? Help please my Physics O level/GCSE was a long, long, time ago.

[Northroader]

If you're measuring the current through the motor, just wire the meter in series with the motor. Mind, looking at your meter I'm wondering why you're getting a reading with it open circuit. What exactly is the meter?

Edited August 5, 2017 by Northroader

[brack]

Ammeters in series, voltmeters in parallel across the component you're measuring.

[relaxinghobby]

The ammeter is not hooked up yet, it's just laying there for the photo. I've centred the needle hoping to make it a center zero meter, the basic principles as I understand them is that it is placed between one of the power leads and the motor, and it needs a shunt resister to calibrate it to about the 1 amp for the motor giving full scale deflection?

 

Back to the chassis....

 

 

I hope this photo will show my method for springing the leading wheel, not my idea I learnt it from Mainly /Trains chassis for their 2-4-0. A strip of phosphor bronze they sell for making pickups is bent into a U and soldered to a suitable bearing with a 1/16 hole or what ever is appropriate for your axle. The other end of the U is solderd under the chasiiss and this will give the font axle abit of wiggle-osity and springing all in one go. The front wheel can rattle around inside the holes in the frame without touching it.

Edited August 6, 2017 by relaxinghobby

[Nile]

A shunt resistor may be needed depending on the current rating of the meter, do you know what it is?

[relaxinghobby]

 

 

Spring bearing and wheel in position, a bit of deft soldering to get it all lined up, I used a drill bit through the bearing hole to hold the bearing in the right alignment with the axle hole being at a perfect right angle to the chassis? Replaced wheel when it had all cooled down.

 

The electric meter in the earlier post has about 2 ohm resistance measured with a basic digital meter, so a shunt resister put in parallel to it needs to have an even smaller resistance?

 

[relaxinghobby]

 

I thought I had nearly finished assembling the chassis and used up all the parts on the etch. Now I find that there is a problem, the brake rods make contact with the coupling pins. Also one of the coupling rods is upside down, I did not notice that before. I think I need to make new longer brakes and reposition the rear rail guards.

 

[relaxinghobby]

 

 

Several things showing here, a hand held tool maker's vice holding the new break shoes, they're four bits of scrap nickel silver soldered together into a sandwich, the outer one being blued with marker pen ink and the shape scratched out, then drilled, sawn and filed to shape before being separated. Hopefully giving 4 identical items, this is almost too small for me to work on, I can just about see this sort of detail. I've artistically arranged some of the small files and saw that can be use for this kind of tiny work. How do 2mm scratch builders do it?

 

Also there is the flywheel tried on for size and fit, its a Branchlines 12mm diameter by 6mm and 1.5 mm bore. Looks a bit big on this loco?

Edited August 7, 2017 by relaxinghobby

[£1.38]

Hrz possibly another with outside cyls, but not sure

 

SSt11.jpg

Now think this is more likely a Yorkshire Engine Co loco - see https://transportsofdelight.smugmug.com/RAILWAYS/BRITISH-INDUSTRIAL-LOCOMOTIVES/INDUSTRIAL-DIESEL-AND-ELECTRIC/i-phwMcph for something very similar

[relaxinghobby]

 

Having to re-do some things on the chassis, fit the new brakes for instance and turn over and resolder the upside down coupling rod. This has introduced a little bit of binding the wheels, they don't run as freely as before for some reason. This is a dangerous time for the continuation of a project. A time when it can be two steps forward and one step back. It is tempting to rush stuff to get back to where I was before making the corrections and make mistakes because if too many things go wrong the project can crash and go back into its box and become a forgotten and unfinished project. Must keep going. The mind wanders to other things more pleasant. I am still not sure on the width of the body, I want to start cutting plastic, it's going to be plastic from the footplate up. The cardboard body does not really show the width properly as it is too clumsy.

Edited August 9, 2017 by relaxinghobby

[relaxinghobby]

How wide?

 

Some stop in progress as I'm not sure what to do next and I have become distracted by another model, a

conversion of a Lima brake van. Part of my modelling quandary is how wide should the model be.

I don't have a fully comprehensive drawing just a side view. Squinting at the few photos of the front

and rear ends of the smallest Sharp Stewart tank, Haro Haro I am going to guess it was the same width as

it's slightly longer sister here

http://colonelstephenssociety.co.uk/colonel%20stephens%20society%20drawings%20service-35/index.html

 

But not sure, so I've been beating around the bush and started this Lima brake van conversion.

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/26807-making-do/page-4&do=findComment&comment=2821500

 

The cardboard model of the loco was too crude to get an idea of the look so I’m going to have to get

started and cut plastic, see how it comes out and risk having to scrap it and start again.

 

Edited August 15, 2017 by relaxinghobby

[relaxinghobby]

Still moaning and groaning I can't decide how wide to make the foot plate. None of the photos surviving of the original show a good end view, except one and there the prototype has been fitted with large blocks of wood as dumb buffers. Offering no reference points to measure from, with proper sprung buffers it is safe to assume they have 5 foot 6 to 5 foot 8 inch centres and calculate other dimensions from that.

 

How far can you trust a drawing I usually end up making a quick back of an envelope one of my own. I aim to get the proportions right at least. This drawing is downloaded from the Colonel Stephens web site.

 

I've got a spare tender top, Hornby I think, at the moment I may cut this up into lengths to use the flared top edge detail for the Sharp Stewart locos of this era had such detail.

Not sure why they did that was it to allow for a bit more coal storage on top of the tanks or a design signature of the makers?

 

[relaxinghobby]

Drawings evolving

 

The problem is how wide are the footplates, These older loco often have a very wide look to then in isolation from other rolling stock because the boilers are so small. This is a sort of optical illussion and has me confused but I'm alright now or I though I was. I was using the L. Derbyshire drawing of Hesperus on the Colenol Stephens web site as a reference. The cardboard mock up body I made earlier using this drawing just looked too wide even allowing for the narrow guage effect of the 00 wheels.

 

It's even difficult to describe the subtle effect of of all this.

 

I thought I could just use the Haro Haro drawing for the side and L. Derbyshire's Hesperus for the front and back. Not so because the buffers are too far apart distorting the whole front look especially with that wide look these little locos have.

 

I've sliced out two vertical sections between the boiler and the tanks and bought the sides in I used old fashioned scissors and glue to do my cut and paste, any one more adept on the computer can do their cut and paste digitally.

 

I've used the new narrower drawings as a pattern to copy to add end and plan elevation to the side view we have so far of Haro Haro

 

I'll go down to the library and use their photocopier to reduce the drawing to 4mm scale.

 

Once I've worked out how to upload these you can see.

 

Trying to put in details from the few photographs that have survived of these old engines can be frustrating because you can't see the bits clearly or one of the proud enginemen is standing in front blocking the view. For instance which side is the brake wheel and pillar on? We can see how far back it is from the drawing and the brake roding in the pictures. It's somewhere to the right of center but no photo shows it clearly so it's going to have to be a guesstimate.

 

Other unknown quantities are how far do the steps stick out?

Reasonably sure about width of footplate, most engines of the period had 7 foot 6 inch wide ones.

 

My drawing was looking good, I had printed it as big as I could on the sheet of paper, we must be accustomed to looking at things in the chosen scale and it was not until I reduced it and had a print to 4mm scale that the footplate looks underside some more development of the drawing is needed.

 

A yellow background is meant to be easier on the eyes for reading than a white background, trouble is the effect is not very even.

 

Couple wheelbase 5ft 6"

 

Warning this drawing is still not a reliable rendering of the loco.

Edited November 5, 2017 by relaxinghobby

[relaxinghobby]

 

 

GWR1300

 

A side shoot off of this project, a what to do? with the other Brynkits 3mm chassis I thought I would adapt to 00 use. I've found a prototype to fit the chassis and for a quick build and when I say quick I mean just as long winded as all my others, using some parts off a previously cut down body of an old Airfix 14XX plastic bodyshell, reduced in width and really just a set of dismembered tanks and body parts that should have gone in the rubbish bin a long time ago.

 

This prototype is GWR number 1300, a small engine used on the Culm valley line. There is scant info' for it. I have this side elevation from an old advert for an 0 gauge kit from a modelling magazine and there are a few photos online, these show it was a very narrow loco, the footplate barely wider than the buffers position on the buffer beam. The dimensions in Wiki' are for a 12 ft wheel base, the adverts drawing is quite close but puts the buffers a fraction too low. After fiddling around on the library photo copier I've enlarge and reduced it to an exceptable dimension and then drawn in the end dimensions with the old fashioned pencil, ruler and compasses method. I've still not yet mastered drawing on the computer.

 

Points to note are 1) a narrow footplate, 2) footplate below tops of bufferbeams as with a Brighton Terrier, 3) very wide boiler for this size of loco, 4) the Gateneal drawing shows it with a Great Westernised bunker and safety valve cover. 5) Small body with an open cab so where to put the motor, if n gaugers and 009-ers can do it so can I.