Semaphore Signalling

[luton town]

Hi all, not too sure if the image I have attached will appear, but can anyone please help me in determining which signals are needed for my layout, it is indeed a concept of the Great Central Railway and Midlands so any advice would be extremely helpful 

 

Regards,

 

Liam

 

 

 

[Ray H]

I'll kick off by suggesting that you would need a stop signal at the far end of the Up platform and one at the near end - i.e. towards the bottom of the picture - of the Down platform. It isn't clear what goes on at the far end of the station - i.e. is there any pointwork to allow trains to cross from one line to the other - so assuming there isn't the only other signal that is blatantly obvious is a further stop signal with two or three signal arms, one granting access to the Down platform and the other(s) providing access to the branch line - which is presumably not passenger as it doesn't have a platform - and the siding and the loco shed/yard. There could be outlet (stop/shunt) signals providing the exit authority for trains/locos leaving the branch line/siding/loco on the relevant tracks on the camera side of the double slip(s) although this would normally only apply if there was a means to cross onto the up line at the far end of the station around the curve.

 

It would be easier to be more precise if you could provide a track plan of (at least) the scenic part of the layout.

 

Hope that helps for starters.

[RailWest]

It would help also to have clear info as to which lines are passenger carrying and which are goods only, so as to identify possible locations for trap-points (eg at the exit in the foreground from the 'siding' onto the 'branch line').

[Junctionmad]

A drawn track plan would be more useful

[Chamby]

If my memory serves me right, the GC London extension was unusual in the way it described the running lines. On the GC, ‘Up’ normally meant towards Sheffield. So Towards London was the Down line. This only affected the description though, trains running ‘down’ towards London were still running on the left hand side of dual track.

 

Re: signalling, you would expect a home starter on the left side of the line you have labelled ‘up’, beyond the platform end... probably just in front of where you have placed your signal cabin. In the other direction, you would have a signal to protect the station, most likely before the turnout leading to the sidings. This would also have an indication to the approaching driver whether the route was set along the main line or into the sidings. Within the sidings area, ground signals would most likely be used. There would also be a starter for trains travelling in the other direction.

 

Regarding your track plan, I would expect to see a trailing crossover beyond the turnout to the sidings, allowing trains to move quickly over to the line labelled ‘up’ so avoiding wrong way running on the line labelled ‘down’. It may be that you have one installed out of sight round the bend, which is fine.

 

For examples of signal design and more precise practice regarding signal locations you can find many photographs in the various books covering this line. One I would recommend is “Great Central Railway’s London Extension” by Robert Rowbotham. Published by Ian Allan in 1999. ISBN 0 7110 2618 1. I picked one up secondhand on Amazon for a good price: as well as some excellent photographs, it also has track plans for each station on the railway.

 

Phil

[RailWest]

>>>you would expect a home starter on the left side of the line you have labelled ‘up’...

 

Sorry to be pedantic :-) but there is/was no such thing.

[Chamby]

>>>you would expect a home starter on the left side of the line you have labelled ‘up’...

 

Sorry to be pedantic :-) but there is/was no such thing.

Chris, pedantry Is a given on this forum - no problem with that! But also explaining what you think is correct would be useful to those of us whom you feel are less well informed?

 

In this case I used the terminology with a purpose, given that the OP is largely building his model with commercially available items. For some reason the commercially available model semaphore signals (Dapol, Hornby etc) all refer to their stop signals as simply Home signals. Using their (albeit debatable) terminology, the OP will need to buy and install a “home” signal as a starter in that position.

 

Phil.

[RailWest]

Chris, pedantry Is a given on this forum - no problem with that! But also explaining what you think is correct would be useful to those of us whom you feel are less well informed?

 

In this case I used the terminology with a purpose, given that the OP is largely building his model with commercially available items. For some reason the commercially available model semaphore signals (Dapol, Hornby etc) all refer to their stop signals as simply Home signals. Using their (albeit debatable) terminology, the OP will need to buy and install a “home” signal as a starter in that position.

 

Phil.

 

What he needs is a 'stop' signal'. Whether it is designated as a 'Home' or 'Starter' or some variation thereof will depend upon its position in the installation in relation to (a) the controlling signal-box and (b) other signals controlled from the same signal-box.

 

It regrettably true that Hornby etc describe their signals incorrectly <grrrr>, and you are correct that he might need to use what they call a 'Home' as a 'Starter' - but a 'Home Starter' is a non-starter (pun definitely intended!) 

[Chamby]

What he needs is a 'stop' signal'. Whether it is designated as a 'Home' or 'Starter' or some variation thereof will depend upon its position in the installation in relation to (a) the controlling signal-box and (b) other signals controlled from the same signal-box.

 

It regrettably true that Hornby etc describe their signals incorrectly <grrrr>, and you are correct that he might need to use what they call a 'Home' as a 'Starter' - but a 'Home Starter' is a non-starter (pun definitely intended!) 

But it does exist! For example, Dapol 4L-003-005 is a “Lattice type SR Home Platform Starter” and you can buy one right now. Available now on Hattons website and elsewhere. Whether it should be described thus is, as you say, debatable. The important thing however is that the OP knows what is meant.

[RailWest]

But it does exist! For example, Dapol 4L-003-005 is a “Lattice type SR Home Platform Starter” and you can buy one right now. Available now on Hattons website and elsewhere. Whether it should be described thus is, as you say, debatable. The important thing however is that the OP knows what is meant.

 

There certainly were/are signals described by the SR as 'Home (Platform Starting)', but that's not the same thing. As to whether the OP knows what is meant, that has yet to be confirmed.

 

Whilst model manufacturers and website etc may use 'debatable' terminology, the more that we ignore that fact then the more we miss the opportunity to educate and inform modellers. Then we can leave it up to OPs to make their own choice.

[Flipper]

If my memory serves me right, the GC London extension was unusual in the way it described the running lines. On the GC, ‘Up’ normally meant towards Sheffield. So Towards London was the Down line. This only affected the description though, trains running ‘down’ towards London were still running on the left hand side of dual track.

Zombie thread alert . . .

 

I do not know about your memory, but your sources have certainly not served you right. From the moment the first mineral trains ran in 1898, until the moment the last track was lifted in the 70s, the GCR’s London Extension was Up to London.

 

Both official GCR documentation, and contemporary newspaper reports, from the opening to mineral traffic in 1898, and passenger traffic in 1899, explicitly mention that up trains ran to London, and Down trains to Manchester, &c.

 

What you have heard is one of the big 3 “Great Central Myths”. It is a partner to:

 

1. “The London Extension was built to a particularly large loading gauge to accommodate future traffic from the Channel Tunnel”. It wasn’t, it was built to exactly the same gauge as the remainder of the GCR’s network, which was smaller than several other contemporary British lines. This myth appears to have started in the 1960s, and the first recorded instances are in literature produced to campaign against the closure. The actual, distinctly average, structure gauge of the LE is both a matter of public record, and preserved in surviving structures.

 

2. “Swithland Reservoir was drained to build the London Extension”. It wasn’t. When the Corporation of Leicester learned that the proposed new line would cross their proposed new reservoir, they went to considerable trouble to ensure that the construction of the former would not be permitted to disrupt the desperately needed supply of water from the latter. Consequently the viaducts and embankment across the reservoir were one of the first pieces of work on the contract, and were in fact built by the same contractors who were simultaneously constructing the reservoir, as a sub-contract to Henry Lovatt. The work was completed before the reservoir began to fill. This myth appears to have originated as a misunderstanding in the 1970s when an author had to write a caption for a S.W.A.Newton photograph which showed the empty reservoir with the newly completed viaduct, and wrongly guessed at the reason behind it.

 

If you will take my advice, you will treat with caution any book or publication which states any of the above myths as fact.