Jump to content




Make your BMRA 2018 award nominations here.


Photo

Etched loco chassis




  • Please log in to reply
909 replies to this topic

#1 Chris Higgs

Chris Higgs

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1,591 posts

Posted 25 June 2011 - 21:23

Just in case anyone wonders whether I ever do any work on my promised loco chassis, here is the test build of the chassis for a Peco 2251. OK, the motor should not be there (it will be in the tender) but I am just trying out how the gearbox design will work in a tank engine. Somehow I have to mount it at the far end, but Mick Simpson says just to use very heavy gauge wires from the motor to the frames.

DSCF6312.JPG

And here are a couple of shots with wheels in (only for show)

DSCF6316.JPG

DSCF6317.JPG

I am pretty happy with the gearbox - it does still flex a little but achieved the goal of not needing any fettling to get the gears to mesh and run nicely.
  • Like x 2



#2 bertiedog

bertiedog

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 6,280 posts
  • LocationCity of Rochester Kent

Posted 25 June 2011 - 22:25

It probably preaching perfection, but it is better "accepted" practice in any gear mechanism to have a finer pitch to the spur gears after a worm gear, finer pitch, or the same as the pitch for the worm.

A courser pitch can lead to a bit of grinding noise and possibly judder developing, but this will in practice be quite low on a 2mm mechanism anyway, and should not really make a problem.

Of course the pitches used may be down to what you have got or what''s actually made, or easy to source.

I had long experience of 2mm in the late 1960/70's (association member), with little available at the time, getting gears made by commercial makers or making my own,
Nice to see properly made 2mm
Stephen,
  • Like x 1

#3 Donw

Donw

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 7,605 posts
  • LocationMinehead

Posted 25 June 2011 - 22:33

Nice looking job. I assume the worm end is held not very clear in the photos. As an alternative method of fixing the motor if there are any suitable spacers a couple of dabs of solvent would hold the motor body. Its been used before although I have never tried it myself. On my 0 gauge dock tank the motor is fixed to a high efficiency gearbox but can rotate around the axle. It sits in the firebox area and seems to be fine.
Don

#4 Chris Higgs

Chris Higgs

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1,591 posts

Posted 25 June 2011 - 22:35

It probably preaching perfection, but it is better "accepted" practice in any gear mechanism to have a finer pitch to the spur gears after a worm gear, finer pitch, or the same as the pitch for the worm.

A courser pitch can lead to a bit of grinding noise and possibly judder developing, but this will in practice be quite low on a 2mm mechanism anyway, and should not really make a problem.

Of course the pitches used may be down to what you have got or what''s actually made, or easy to source.

I had long experience of 2mm in the late 1960/70's (association member), with little available at the time, getting gears made by commercial makers or making my own,
Nice to see properly made 2mm
Stephen,


Hmm, interesting.

I have just followed what almost everyone else is doing in 2mm, using the 100DP wormset (the only ones available) followed by the 64DP final drive. There are 100DP spur gears available, although I worried about getting them meshed OK given that the design does not provide any means of adjustment. Plus the 100DP gears are made by hand, and could disappear along with their maker if he is no longer able to continue. Wheeas the 64DP are beibng replaced by the almost like for like MOD 0.4, and a finer range of MOD 0.3 (around 80DP) introduced.

I shall have to think about the decision again.

Chris

#5 Chris Higgs

Chris Higgs

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1,591 posts

Posted 25 June 2011 - 22:38

Nice looking job. I assume the worm end is held not very clear in the photos. As an alternative method of fixing the motor if there are any suitable spacers a couple of dabs of solvent would hold the motor body. Its been used before although I have never tried it myself. On my 0 gauge dock tank the motor is fixed to a high efficiency gearbox but can rotate around the axle. It sits in the firebox area and seems to be fine.
Don


Yes the hidden end of the gearbox has a bearing just like the end you can see.

#6 -missy-

-missy-

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 674 posts
  • LocationWallingford in Oxfordshire Land

Posted 26 June 2011 - 05:46

Hi Chris.

Im glad to see progress on the 22xx chassis. These engines were very common on the DNSR and so I am planning on building a few of them for Highclere. How does the motor fit into the body? I know there is room for a motor around the firebox area but the motor you have there is quite a large one so I was wondering if any bits of it show at all?

Please keep the pictures of the progress comming though, this is VERY interesting to me.

Missy :yes:

#7 Chris Higgs

Chris Higgs

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1,591 posts

Posted 26 June 2011 - 13:45

Hi Chris.

Im glad to see progress on the 22xx chassis. These engines were very common on the DNSR and so I am planning on building a few of them for Highclere. How does the motor fit into the body? I know there is room for a motor around the firebox area but the motor you have there is quite a large one so I was wondering if any bits of it show at all?

Please keep the pictures of the progress comming though, this is VERY interesting to me.

Missy :yes:


As I mentioned in the first post, the motor is just there for testing, and so see if the same gearbox design will work OK in a tank engine. In the final loco, it will be in the tender, with a UJ to the loco.

Let me know how you get on buying a number of bodies from Peco. When someone else iterested approached them, they soon starting backtracking after hearing we wanted more than one. Which is whty the design has not progressed very fats, it dosen't get much priority if there is no chance of me getting a body to match it.

Chris

#8 Pixie

Pixie

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 948 posts
  • LocationBracknell

Posted 27 June 2011 - 08:09

Very nice bit of engineering there Chris - sadly it's not a lot of use to me, but the the 08 and 03 ones will be when they become available. Is there any news on them at all?

Pix

#9 Gingerbread

Gingerbread

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 216 posts

Posted 27 June 2011 - 11:58

Regardless of availability (or otherwise) of bodies from Peco, I am interested in this as a chassis for the long-awaited Dean Goods body kit from N-Brass.

David

#10 bertiedog

bertiedog

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 6,280 posts
  • LocationCity of Rochester Kent

Posted 27 June 2011 - 12:55

I don't know if times have changed at Peco, but separate items from a Loco sounds unlikely, especially a low production specialist item.Mr Pritchard, the late original owner, could, for good reasons, be very, very, wary indeed of supplying spares, unless for g/tee and service reasons.

Do consider making the body in brass or nickel silver, 2mm scale actually helps, small easy to make parts, no rivets unless you want them, the body is the easiest part, it is the wheels, motor, and gear mechanism, that remains the stumbling block for most 2mm builders.

Motors are now easy, the tiny coreless motors are completely usable, and Nigel Lawton does tiny 14:1 and 15:1 gears sets, to which belts can be added, making easy springing more possible. Ultrascale can also supply fine pitch small spur gears. But if your into wheels then it is the 2mm Association or a bit of lathe work!!
Stephen.

#11 Pixie

Pixie

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 948 posts
  • LocationBracknell

Posted 27 June 2011 - 13:11

Do consider making the body in brass or nickel silver


In a similar vein, have you considered doing the tender for the Collet goods Chris? As I'm sure you know the one that Peco provide is fairly non-typical for the class. If the project spawned into 3500 and 4000 tenders then I'd certainly be interested in some! ;)

Pix

#12 Chris Higgs

Chris Higgs

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1,591 posts

Posted 27 June 2011 - 14:20

I don't know if times have changed at Peco, but separate items from a Loco sounds unlikely, especially a low production specialist item.Mr Pritchard, the late original owner, could, for good reasons, be very, very, wary indeed of supplying spares, unless for g/tee and service reasons.

Do consider making the body in brass or nickel silver, 2mm scale actually helps, small easy to make parts, no rivets unless you want them, the body is the easiest part, it is the wheels, motor, and gear mechanism, that remains the stumbling block for most 2mm builders.

Motors are now easy, the tiny coreless motors are completely usable, and Nigel Lawton does tiny 14:1 and 15:1 gears sets, to which belts can be added, making easy springing more possible. Ultrascale can also supply fine pitch small spur gears. But if your into wheels then it is the 2mm Association or a bit of lathe work!!
Stephen.


They were happy enough to supply Jubilee bodies, I have a box full to prove it. Still. we shall see. I think it depends on whether they have bodies over when they decide to stop production, which it is rumoured they will.

#13 Chris Higgs

Chris Higgs

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1,591 posts

Posted 27 June 2011 - 14:22

In a similar vein, have you considered doing the tender for the Collet goods Chris? As I'm sure you know the one that Peco provide is fairly non-typical for the class. If the project spawned into 3500 and 4000 tenders then I'd certainly be interested in some! ;)

Pix


Far too much work for far too few sales, I fear. :)

The Peco one is indeed non-typical, as it's ficticious!

#14 Chris Higgs

Chris Higgs

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1,591 posts

Posted 27 June 2011 - 14:24

Regardless of availability (or otherwise) of bodies from Peco, I am interested in this as a chassis for the long-awaited Dean Goods body kit from N-Brass.

David


I would have to check if the gearbox fits inside a Dean goods firebox. It was specifically designed quite high to match the height of the driveshaft on an Ixion/Dapol 3500 gall GWR tender.

#15 Chris Higgs

Chris Higgs

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1,591 posts

Posted 27 June 2011 - 14:57

Very nice bit of engineering there Chris - sadly it's not a lot of use to me, but the the 08 and 03 ones will be when they become available. Is there any news on them at all?

Pix


The 57XX, 14XX and 03 are all very close now. These are my priority as they are the easiest to get bodies for. At least, the 57XX you can buy from BR Lines or others, and the other two are at least cheap if you have to buy the whole loco.

The Class 08 exists only as computer artwork. So a while away as there will be one or two test etches to do.

There are plans for more.

#16 SteveBedding

SteveBedding

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 246 posts
  • LocationWiltshire, UK

Posted 27 June 2011 - 19:18

The 57XX, 14XX and 03 are all very close now...


This is sounding good :D My attempts at a 57xx frame have not been as successful as I would like and certainly not as detailed as yours - so hopefully the 'very close' is really very close... :rolleyes: As to the 2251, that's going to be an even greater appeal, especially if it can be adapted for the 'eventual' Dean goods...

...There are plans for more.

What would these be? Can I hope for chassis for the Ixion Manor, and future offerings such as the Farish WD and the Dapol Hall?

#17 -missy-

-missy-

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 674 posts
  • LocationWallingford in Oxfordshire Land

Posted 27 June 2011 - 20:14

Hello.

Getting spare parts from PECO is not impossible. I spoke to a PECO sales guy at a Warley show a few years back and he suggested I send Mr Prichard a letter through the post (as he doesnt read emails apparantly) with the request. I duly did this explaining the reasons (i.e. modelling 2FS and the engine was for my layout) and I got a reply from him via email listing the parts for the 22xx and prices. I replied and promptly send off a cheque, and a week or so later the parts for the 22xx body turned up.

As for a tender to suit I talked nicely to Ixion a while ago and managed to get hold of a manor tender.

Never say never!

M. :yes:

#18 Chris Higgs

Chris Higgs

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1,591 posts

Posted 28 June 2011 - 05:46

This is sounding good :D My attempts at a 57xx frame have not been as successful as I would like and certainly not as detailed as yours - so hopefully the 'very close' is really very close... :rolleyes: As to the 2251, that's going to be an even greater appeal, especially if it can be adapted for the 'eventual' Dean goods...


What would these be? Can I hope for chassis for the Ixion Manor, and future offerings such as the Farish WD and the Dapol Hall?


Possibly for the GWR locos - although I understand there is another solution under development for the Manor. Almost certainly not for the WD, as fancy valve gear is not in my scope, and we don't have the wheels either.

The only one I have done any work on is a chassis for the Farish 61XX - that would provide all the common parts for GWR locos such as the 43XX, Manor and Hall.

Also in my mind are the Farish Jinty, Dapol Q1, and the Farish Bulleid pacifics.

Chris

#19 Chris Higgs

Chris Higgs

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1,591 posts

Posted 28 June 2011 - 05:47

Hello.

Getting spare parts from PECO is not impossible. I spoke to a PECO sales guy at a Warley show a few years back and he suggested I send Mr Prichard a letter through the post (as he doesnt read emails apparantly) with the request. I duly did this explaining the reasons (i.e. modelling 2FS and the engine was for my layout) and I got a reply from him via email listing the parts for the 22xx and prices. I replied and promptly send off a cheque, and a week or so later the parts for the 22xx body turned up.

As for a tender to suit I talked nicely to Ixion a while ago and managed to get hold of a manor tender.

Never say never!

M. :yes:


Yes, but that was as a one-off. If ten people come asking the same question, the answer may well be different.

Chris

#20 Gingerbread

Gingerbread

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 216 posts

Posted 28 June 2011 - 06:52

Can I hope for chassis for the Ixion Manor, and future offerings such as the Farish WD and the Dapol Hall?

Yes, as Chris Higgs said there is a replacement chassis under development for the Ixion Manor by Nigel Ashton (and it could be seen briefly on Llangerisech layout at the Keighley Expo).

Strictly speaking it perhaps doesn't belong in this thread as it is not an etched chassis, but a milled block (brass I believe), but the bogie will be etched.

He also intends to developed it into a similar replacement chassis for the forthcoming Ixion 63xx Mogul.

David

#21 Pixie

Pixie

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 948 posts
  • LocationBracknell

Posted 28 June 2011 - 08:14

Far too much work for far too few sales, I fear. :)


Ah, thanks anyway Chris - I can appreciate that it's probably a bit of a long shot. The Farish body for the 4000 gallon doesn't seem too bad once the moulded coal has been ripped out, it's just the chassis that lets it down. Some scratch building required I think! The smaller tender seems to be the biggest stumbling block at the moment, all of the kits I've seen seem to be a little... er... 'aged'.

The 57XX, 14XX and 03 are all very close now.

The Class 08 exists only as computer artwork. So a while away as there will be one or two test etches to do.


Looking forward to them! Which motor will they be based around? I think I'll get the bits stocked up in the meantime.

As for a tender to suit I talked nicely to Ixion a while ago and managed to get hold of a manor tender.


That's interesting Julia, I sent them an email and got a (whilst very friendly) no-can-do answer. Who did you email? Ixion direct or Dapol?

Pix

#22 Chris Higgs

Chris Higgs

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1,591 posts

Posted 28 June 2011 - 08:59

Looking forward to them! Which motor will they be based around? I think I'll get the bits stocked up in the meantime.

That's interesting Julia, I sent them an email and got a (whilst very friendly) no-can-do answer. Who did you email? Ixion direct or Dapol?


Don't stock up yet, I might change my mind! At the moment, it's looking like this:

For the 14XX - the new Asscoation motor (3-257) it's about the only thing that will fit in. This motor was pretty impressive in the tests we ran, and out-performed a whole lot of larger beasts. You could reuse the Dapol motor as it is the same size, although I would hardly recommend it.

Class 03 - 3-257 or an 8mm coreless motor

Class 08 and 57XX - the above or 1016 coreless motor. The 08 may well take even bigger motors, such as the Tenshodos.

I think you will find Julia was owed a favour by the Ixion/Dapol conglomerate, whereas you probably are not.

Chris

#23 richbrummitt

richbrummitt

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1,095 posts
  • Location- in a world of my own

Posted 28 June 2011 - 09:24

57XX - the above or 1016 coreless motor.


Did you change the height of the worm gear shaft between the test etches that I built and the final version?

#24 Chris Higgs

Chris Higgs

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1,591 posts

Posted 28 June 2011 - 09:54

Did you change the height of the worm gear shaft between the test etches that I built and the final version?


On the 14XX yes, it was lowered. This should leave more of the cab free of motor.

The 57XX is different as I am only doing the middle axle drive version at present, which is not the one you built.

#25 richbrummitt

richbrummitt

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1,095 posts
  • Location- in a world of my own

Posted 28 June 2011 - 11:41

On the 14XX yes, it was lowered. This should leave more of the cab free of motor.


I think you originally made it such that the height made the motor centre line sit at the boiler pitch. It's a really nice idea and would make for a better performing loco. I doubt many people would have built it this way however due to the inherent difficulty of hiding the chassis body join where the motor (which would have to appear as the boiler) joins the smokebox.

On another note is the 2251 chassis really a substitute for a dean goods? I think I remember being told the N brass kit has been 'adapted' to fit the 4F chassis, in which case the splashers may need moving.