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Help with Welsh Translation




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#1 mah644

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 00:56

Greetings,

I would appreciate it if someone with expertise in Welsh could provide a translation of "Frogemere Follies", the chosen name of my Welshpool focused OO/OO9 layout. "Frogemere" itself usually considered to be a construct of "frog marsh". Thanks for any assistance.

Kindest Regards,

Carl

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#2 Adam

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 07:46

Disclaimer - I am not a native speaker, but am learning, very slowly. Marsh is morfa and frog would be (usually) llyffant so Morfa Lllyffant. Llyffant is toad really but seems to be 'normal'. The 'proper' word for frog is broga, which you might prefer as it is a. easier to pronounce for English speakers and b. echoes the length and form of morfa, so Morfa Broga? Not sure how recently 'broga' was coined however. Will check with the multi-volume University of Wales dictionary in the library later...

Adam
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#3 22xx

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 10:42

Adam's right about the word for frog, but I'm afraid it gets even more complicated. North Walians would say llyffant, but in the south west they say broga. Unfortunately, Montgomeryshire is right on the border between N and S Welsh, and has some strange quirks all of its own, so you'd really need to ask a native Welsh speaker from Welshpool. Failing that, I'd go with llyffant.

The usual word for marsh/bog is cors; morfa is specifically a sea-marsh. So Frogemere would be Cors y Llyffant (or alternatively Corsyllyffant or Cors-y-Llyffant, depending on how your railway company treats Welsh place-names).

'Follies' is a bit more of a problem. On the assumption that the follies in question are buildings, the word you want would be ffoleddau.

So Frogemere Follies would be Ffoleddau Cors y Llyffant.
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#4 Joseph_Pestell

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 10:45

On a narrow gauge layout, the platforms may not be long enough to accommodate the nameboard.
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#5 eastwestdivide

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 12:39

As another option, I think some English versions of place names in Wales are just bastardisations of the Welsh pronunciation/spelling, so could there be a genuine Welsh word that resembles Frogemere, probably with two Fs?
For example Cardiff / Caerdydd, which I'm reliably informed is from Caer (fort) on the Taf(f) river. Taf becomes Tyf becomes Dyf becomes -dydd, hence Caerdydd, bastardised into Cardiff.

#6 Happy Hippo

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 16:12

Carl,

I'm sure that you will be well served by the above replies. As one of many Welsh men who 'dim siarad y Cymraeg' my limited knowledge would be of little assistance. Unfortunately the Welsh language is also littered with anomolies which either bear no direct translation, or have totally different meanings.

For instance, if you travel through Three Cocks (of the eponymous junction fame ), you find that it is called Aberllynfi...............Now since we generally accept Aber as 'mouth of' or 'entrance to' as in Aberdovey/ystwyth/aeron/afon/cynon, and Llyn is lake, where the dickens is the multiples of the male fowl? There isn't any significant lake near Three Cocks, just the River Wye.

My parents used to live in Whitchurch, but their Welsh address was Eglwys Newydd which literally means New Church. Yet Llan also means church, for example, I was married in LLanrhos, which means Church on the Moor. and this is not due to the idiosyncracies of differing aspects of the language in NorthWales/South Wales it's just one of those words that has more than one translation.Perhaps it is the type of church?.

Block of flats has no translation, so is 'welshified' to bloc o fflats. I'm sure there is a formal Welsh written version, but you can listen to a Welsh convesation and it can be littered with english words where there is no Welsh equivilent.

When I was at school, Welsh was considered a dead language, and it was seen to be dying. 40 years later, and how things have changed. Welsh is moving on, and some of the formal Welsh I was taught at school now sounds very odd compared to the more 'streamlined' Welsh pronounciation my two young nephews are learning and using.

Regards

Richard



:
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#7 22xx

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 16:13

you'd really need to ask a native Welsh speaker from Welshpool. Failing that, I'd go with llyffant.


Just asked a native Welsh-speaking friend from Newtown (close enough!) what he'd call a frog - llyffant it is!

#8 petethemole

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 17:44

I thought Three Cocks Junction was named after a pub/inn nearby.
Pete

#9 Bernard Lamb

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 18:30

I thought Three Cocks Junction was named after a pub/inn nearby.
Pete

I thought it was named after an exceptionally well endowed welshman. :O
Bernard
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#10 mah644

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 22:14

'Follies' is a bit more of a problem. On the assumption that the follies in question are buildings, the word you want would be ffoleddau.


Actually, I was thinking more of "follies" being a series of foolish actions. I imagine this would make a difference. In the US, the purchase of Alaska is still sometimes known as "Seward's Folly"--a foolish act perpetrated by Seward, the Secretary of State at the time.

Best Wishes,

Carl

Edited by mah644, 29 March 2012 - 22:49 .


#11 22xx

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 09:56

Actually, I was thinking more of "follies" being a series of foolish actions. I imagine this would make a difference. In the US, the purchase of Alaska is still sometimes known as "Seward's Folly"--a foolish act perpetrated by Seward, the Secretary of State at the time.

Best Wishes,

Carl


In that case the word would be Ffolinebau.

Another thing to bear in mind is that the historical period will make a difference to the name, for several reasons:
1) the level of anglicisation, reflecting social attitudes and official policies towards the language, and also borrowing of English words into Welsh;
2) changes in orthography - some very prominent Victorian academics objected strongly to the standardisation of the plural as -au, on the grounds that nobody pronounced it that way (northerners say -a and southerners -e), and it has no relation to the oldest written spellings (-ai, -ou, etc) in medieval manuscripts (NB English spellings have changed too!);
3) The use of hyphens is really an early-mid 20th century fad, intended to help people pronounce and make sense of some place-names.

So as a very rough example you might have:
Frogemere Follies (1860s)
Frogmere Follies (1880s)
Corsylyfant Follies (1900s)
Folineba Cors-Y-Llyffant (1930s)
Ffolis Cors-y-llyffant (1960s)
Ffolinebau Cors-y-llyffant (1980s)
Ffolinebau Corsyllyffant (modern)

Good luck :)
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#12 Debs.

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 10:20

Ffoleddau Cors y Llyffant.


:mocking_mini: That`s easy for you to say! :laugh_mini:
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#13 Happy Hippo

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 10:23

A good Welsh accent is helped by a mouth half full of smooth stones and a lot of spit.

Regards

Richard

#14 22xx

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 10:50

A good Welsh accent is helped by a mouth half full of smooth stones and a lot of spit.

Regards

Richard


Only for those with a speech impediment.
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#15 BlackRat

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 15:56

As a native of Cymru, may I suggest moving the location to France ;)

Having tried to learn Welsh for 10 years in school................

My parents used to live in Whitchurch, but their Welsh address was Eglwys Newydd


Eggy Newydd, me old school!
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#16 110samec

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 16:19

You don't need a literal translation. I speak Welsh and am from Holyhead. Many towns in Wales have Welsh and English names which mean different things. For example Holyhead in Welsh is Caergybi which actually means Cybis Fort. The Welsh name for your layout can be something completely different to the English name.
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#17 22xx

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 11:17

You don't need a literal translation. I speak Welsh and am from Holyhead. Many towns in Wales have Welsh and English names which mean different things. For example Holyhead in Welsh is Caergybi which actually means Cybis Fort. The Welsh name for your layout can be something completely different to the English name.


Very true. Frogemere Follies sounds like a recent-ish name relating to the activities of some English landlord, so the Welsh name (assuming there is an older name) is likely to be something quite different.






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