BR London Midland Region 1950s -80s

[Fat Controller]

Great shots Arthur.

 

The series of photos taken on the day in the snow of Bahamas are at Fowler Lane, Farington. The signals on the fast line give the location away. I guess you thought you'd been at Factory Lane, Lower Penwortham which is an underbridge - Fowler Lane is an overbridge and can be seen in the background on the going away shot of 45596.

 

I remember seeing the ex-LMS BTs in use as Guard's accommodation on the first Freightliner workings. As The Fat Controller wrote, ASLEF boycotted the use of the 'cabooses' and the coaches were used until BR and the Union agreed to letting guards ride in the back cabs of diesel locos. What would've have happened had the diesel failed and been replaced by a steam loco?

 

As an aside, did you get any photos of 66A EE Type 1s (class 20s) on the Coventry-Bathgate car trains around that time?

If the diesel had failed and been replaced by a steam loco, they'd have had to put a van on the back and run it as a Class 8, because there were very few steam locos (perhaps two BR Standard 5MT by the period in question)were fitted with air brakes.

I think it was the NUR, rather than ASLEF, who boycotted the cabooses- ASLEF were only interested in keeping the guard off the loco, and not in their welfare. This was one of a number of disputes which plagued early Freightliner operations- another one (with the NUR) concerned the use of third-party lorries (either customers' own vehicles or hauliers) to collect and deliver containers.

[Leander]

FC - thanks for clarifying that point.

[steverabone]

Lancaster 1963-1965

 

In Lancaster itself in August 1964. I found LMS design 2MT 46433. Not too sue where I was standing when I took this. No electrifation as yet except for the Morcambe overhead in the left background.

 

Great photos which really take me back to my childhood in the early 60s. The photo of 46433 is at Lancaster Green Ayre shed with the electrified line curving away over the bridge on the line to Morecambe - this now carries the main road.

[ArthurK]

The shots of "bahamas" were taken at Factory Lane. At the time of posting I couldn't remember its name.

[Leander]

Not wishing to be argumentative Arthur, 'Bahamas' is definitely at Fowler Lane, Farington on the Down Fast. The right hand bracket signal is pulled off for the line up to Lostock Hall to join the Liverpool - Blackburn line.

 

The excellent http://www.sixbellsjunction.co.uk/ website gives the route for 45596 as Manchester Exchange - Golborne Jn - Wigan North Western - Farington Jn - Bamber Bridge - Blackburn - Hellifield where 4472 took over for the run over the S&C to Penrith via Carlisle.

 

This is a great archive of shots - I'm really enjoying seeing each new posting. It brings back a fair few memories!

[Guest Phil]

 

I remember seeing the ex-LMS BTs in use as Guard's accommodation on the first Freightliner workings. As The Fat Controller wrote, ASLEF boycotted the use of the 'cabooses' and the coaches were used until BR and the Union agreed to letting guards ride in the back cabs of diesel locos.

 

 

Ah, LMS Brake Third then. Looks like an improvement on the caboose container idea:

Photo of a caboose here (scroll down): http://www.yorkareag..._5_Wagon-Photos

And one apparently at the NRM (no photo): http://www.nrm.org.u...6-9396&pageNo=4

 

 

So could someone please positively identify Arthur's photo of the freightliner ?

I am no expert at all on pre BR coaching stock, but that coach does look a little bit WR rather than LMS in design. is it the tumblehome, or the look of the running gear ?

 

Please prove me wrong !!

 

As always, excellent stuff Arthur and great comments too.

[Guest Phil]

If the diesel had failed and been replaced by a steam loco, they'd have had to put a van on the back and run it as a Class 8, because there were very few steam locos (perhaps two BR Standard 5MT by the period in question)were fitted with air brakes.

 

Interesting one. I'm inclined to think a steam loco would have dragged the train off the mainline into somewhere were a loco change could occur, but I'm minded to think an dual-braked diesel or electric would have been purloined. Don't forget, although there were relatively few dual-braked diesels around, there were a lot more locos around generally, so it would have been easier to rob one from something lesser. I think a hierarchical loco would have been found because 'liners were pretty high up the "food chain".

 

I think it was the NUR, rather than ASLEF, who boycotted the cabooses- ASLEF were only interested in keeping the guard off the loco, and not in their welfare. This was one of a number of disputes which plagued early Freightliner operations- another one (with the NUR) concerned the use of third-party lorries (either customers' own vehicles or hauliers) to collect and deliver containers.

 

Absolutely FC.

I'm just bemused by what facilities the guard had in one of these ex coaching stock "vans".

 

 

The mention of 66A type 1s is intriguing but I'm not sure it happened for long. I've seen a few photos of EE type 4s of both D2xx and D4xx on the Bathgate trains and guess the type 1s really only kicked the service off.

 

 

Just adding a little spice to this, Mikeh has dug up a little info from Nov 1963 Railway Observer.

"During Aug and Sep the Aston-Glasgow "Condor", normally a Crewe North Type 2 duty was worked by the uprated 1350 hp NBL diesel D6123 (65A) at least once or twice a week. Steam haulage has been used from time to time, usually one of Aston's Britannias with the large tenders."

 

Up until now I've not seen concrete proof in terms of dates, but this suggests that NBLs did actually work through to Birmingham - even for a limited time - like the type 1s on the Linwood / Bathgates.

 

Thanks to Mikeh for the RO research.

[ArthurK]

THAT COACH

 

Following all the comments on the leading coach of the freightliner I have blown up the coach and loco. Perhaps someone can identify it more easily.

 

Also the road where "Bahamas" was photographed was Factory Lane. I had forgotten its name when I posted.

 

[Fat Controller]

I really don't know to be honest. The thought just came to me as I was writing it, and I doubt propane would be fitted - just a guess. Maybe an old stove and stove pipe but that would have been a helluva a draught up the stove pipe at 75mph !!!!

 

If the guards weren't prepared to accept riding in a plastic bubble on a wagon at 75mph, I can't imagine they'd have been too happy about riding in a freezing cold coach either.

 

 

 

There were a couple of Std class 5s - 73030/031 IIRC ?

 

I was thinking of some old Scottish or GE stock, as I presume the old LBSC stuff had met it's maker by then. You are probably right about the suitability of rollicking around between a big diesel and quite a heavy freightliner train, which begs another question - what sort of tonnages were involved when Freightliner started up ? The 1980s would see trains normally formed of up to 20 vehicles equalling 64 SLUs. If each 20 foot box has 20 tons in it you could easily gross over 1700 tons. Those drawhooks on the Non Corridors probably never saw so much weight hanging off em !!!!

I believe the normal Freightliner train of the late 1960s was composed of three five-car sets- whilst this might give a theoretical loaded weight of about 1200 tonnes, in practice there were a lot of empty or lightly-loaded boxes. A report I saw of one of the early runs suggested that only three out of one trainload from York Way to Scotland were loaded. I've a recollection somewhere of seeing that Brush Type 4s were restricted to 1160 tons for 60 mph timings, or about 900 for 75 mph- the former would fit with my memories of the Waterston- Albion workings, which were 11 bogie tanks.

They must have done something to beef up the carriage running gear though- visions of loco pulling away quickly and leaving the train standing, with a broken drawhook and the guard shaking his fist......I can think of two instances of this happening to much more modern stock behind a 92, so wouldn't fancy an unrefurbished carriag underframe's chances.

[ArthurK]

LOSTOCK HALL SHED

 

I made several visits to this shed in the mid sixties. The first group of shots below are in September 1963. It had (of course) been raining.

 

In this first shot we have one of the original Midland 3F 0-6-0T No 47201. This is one of the non-condensing engines. In the background is a sister engine, 47202 if I remember correctly, which is condenser fitted. Why I didn't photograph that I will never know. perhaps I was running low on film.

 

Ivatt 2-6-0 No. 46449. I seem to have photographed this loco a number of times!

 

A nicely turned out Class 5 4-6-0 No. 45094. This had brought in a Blackpool Illuminations Excursion that morning. I have a photograph of the train at Kirkham. Blackpool shed must have been full to overflowing that day.

 

A pair of WD 2-8-0s in their usual dirty condition. I believe the nearest is No. 90320.

 

Stanier 2-6-4T No.42436.

[ArthurK]

LOSTOCK HALL SHED

A second visit about one one two weeks later provided a bit of variety in the form of a 9F. The usual inmates were still around including Midland 3F

 

In this first shot we have 9F 2-10-0 No. 92162. It is surprisingly clean condition.

 

In contrast WD No. 90470 is in the usual dirty condition.

 

 

For those that want detail here is a closer view of the Cylinders and motion on the 9F

 

In this shot we can compare the original Midland 3F 0-6-0T with the LMS built version. Note the absence of "Keyhole" in the former. Also the straight back to the bunker.

 

A frontal view of 47201.

[k9-70]

THAT COACH

 

Following all the comments on the leading coach of the freightliner I have blown up the coach and loco. Perhaps someone can identify it more easily.

 

Also the road where "Bahamas" was photographed was Factory Lane. I had forgotten its name when I posted.

 

 

Only a guess, and I'm probably wrong, but the coach looks like a LMS Non-Corridor Period III 54ft seven compartment brake third built for the LT&S services.

It would appear that the coach has been re-bodied at sometime during BR days, but the compartment doors have been left in place.

 

Excellent photos

 

K9-70

[Leander]

After some thought and reference to Essery & Jenkinson's 'LMS Standard Coaching Stock Vol. 3' (OPC; 2000), it would hazard to suggest that it's an ex-LMS Period 3 BS to D1964A). The main clues are the two pairs of double doors at the van end, the ventilator spacing, the lack of rain strips and the impression the photo gives of it having been fitted with a welded underframe. Note it's lost its electric lighting cables on the coach end

 

Comet Models's Kit M58 fits the bill nicely.

[Leander]

Lovely photos of 24C Arthur. The shots of 47201 are just great to help with my final detailing and finishing of a 4mm EM model of that loco built from the Craftsman kit.

 

It was unique (I think) in that class in being a loco converted from being condenser fitted. Why two or three (at least) ended up in the north west I do not know, especially when the 350hp shunters were becoming so common and the area seemed awash with LMS 3F 0-6-0Ts which were fast becoming redundant. I think Rose Grove and Newton Heath had some.

 

47201 later went to Carnforth, mainly in store, before finishing up at Patricroft. It's a great shame it wasn't preserved.

[ArthurK]

LOSTOCK HALL SHED

 

For this batch of photos I have included all the 'normal' occupants of the shed. The last session will be a little different. The date is September 1964.

 

BR Standard 2-6-4Ts were not common in the Northwest but on this occasion there were at least 3 at Lostock Hall all destined for the scrapyard. If I can trust my 1963 Shed Book all three were from Scottish sheds.

 

This pair nos. 80056 and 80129 have the connecting rods removed, nodoubt to make haulage easier.

 

80125 is in a similar state.

 

Next two 8Fs. Thanks to the state of them it is almost impossible to read the numbers but the second is 48223.

 

 

Two shots of WD 2-8-0 90297. Looks in reasonable condition but it has a "Not to be moved" disk above the left Cylinder so there must have been some problem.

 

 

Last of this batch Stanier 2-6-4T 42584 in pretty dirty state. I had to do a bit of fiddle to read the number.

[ArthurK]

LOSTOCK HALL SHED

 

I promised something a little different for the last post from this shed. Well here it is. Lostock had two LMS Kitson 0-4-0STs. During the week these would normally be found at the small Yard at Deepdale on the east of the mainline. On the occasion of this visit both were 'on shed'. I am told that at weekends these were towed to the shed by a 3F 0-6-0T as they did not operate the track circuits. There were two versions of this small class. One had a short tank whilst that of the second was much longer. Lostock had one of each.

 

I had devoted this posting solely to these two locos. These were numbers 47002 and 47008. These are below without further comment. Enjoy!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Michael Delamar]

those shots of Bank Halls 47002 are brilliant, its one on my long lists of locos to model one day so those shots will come in useful

 

thanks

 

Mike

[Guest Phil]

First of all, thanks for identifying that Freightliner brakevan in Arthur's photograph.

 

Lovely photos of 24C Arthur. The shots of 47201 are just great to help with my final detailing and finishing of a 4mm EM model of that loco built from the Craftsman kit.

 

It was unique (I think) in that class in being a loco converted from being condenser fitted. Why two or three (at least) ended up in the north west I do not know, especially when the 350hp shunters were becoming so common and the area seemed awash with LMS 3F 0-6-0Ts which were fast becoming redundant. I think Rose Grove and Newton Heath had some.

 

The reason so many Jinties migrated to the northwest became apparent in a Railway Observer which Mikeh was reading the other day, because he commented to me about it. British Railways were having serious problems finding enough footplate crews in the West Midlands for all their work. The solution was to divert a batch of new build "350hp" shunt locos from the intended Northwest sheds into the West Midlands to allow single manning of the diesels. The steam shunting tanks were reallocated to the Northwest until later deliveries of 350s could be made.

 

If Mikeh reads this perhaps he can more accurately quote ?

 

47201 later went to Carnforth, mainly in store, before finishing up at Patricroft. It's a great shame it wasn't preserved.

[ArthurK]

Looking through my list of colour slides I appear to have a shot of 47202 at Fleetwood Shed. I have not scanned it as yet but when I do I will post it with others from that shed.

[eastwestdivide]

Freightliner brake vans (again): I just unearthed a pile of typed sheets from D Larkin from 1981-ish, which list 4 lots of "Freightliner brake van", numbered B963901-60.

 

The four lots are

3598, B963901-04, Derby 1966

3601, B963905-16, Derby 1966

3614, B963917-22, Derby 1967

3643, B963923-60, Swindon 1967

 

The last lot has a pencilled note by it: "ex-suburban coaches".

 

Nothing as useful as photos, former identities, or diagram numbers, but it's a start.

 

They are also mentioned at http://www.ltsv.com/w_ref_numbers_b2.php as converted coaching stock.

 

And, there's a mention on another forum of a photo in Railway Magazine December 1967

http://www.lner.info/forums/re-containers-p24360.html

 

 

Sorry to keep hijacking the thread, but it seemed better to keep all the info together

[Guest Phil]

Freightliner brake vans (again): I just unearthed a pile of typed sheets from D Larkin from 1981-ish, which list 4 lots of "Freightliner brake van", numbered B963901-60.

 

The four lots are

3598, B963901-04, Derby 1966

3601, B963905-16, Derby 1966

3614, B963917-22, Derby 1967

3643, B963923-60, Swindon 1967

 

The last lot has a pencilled note by it: "ex-suburban coaches".

 

Nothing as useful as photos, former identities, or diagram numbers, but it's a start.

 

They are also mentioned at http://www.ltsv.com/..._numbers_b2.php as converted coaching stock.

 

And, there's a mention on another forum of a photo in Railway Magazine December 1967

http://www.lner.info...ers-p24360.html

 

 

Sorry to keep hijacking the thread, but it seemed better to keep all the info together

 

Excellent stuff EWD. Thanks for taking the trouble.

Perhaps we should make a separate thread of it for future reference ?

Hope you guys don't mind if I C&P it into a new thread ?

[ArthurK]

TREALES 1961

 

Leaving Lostock Hall behind we now move to the West of Preston. About a mile east of Kirkham is the village of Treales. at this point the line to Blackpool has four tracks. In the Lancashire "Wakes" weeks this line was extremely busy although there was some decline in the sixties. The decrease was compensated for by the many excursions in the late summer into September and October carrying the tourists to view the Blacpool Illuminations. These trains, both Wakes and Illumination, brought a surprising variety of motive power to the Fylde coast. Some of these I photographed at Treales. Another attaction was the use of preserved locos on these trains.

 

In this first batch we have fairly everyday stuff but here goes.

 

 

This first shot is the inevitable Class 5 N0.45415 with a train from Blackpool. This is on the fast lines so had probably come direct from Blacpool North or Central rather than via the coastal route through Lytham St. Annes.

 

 

A Brittania No, 70048 "The Territorial Army 1908-1958" at the head of a train to Blackpool. I cannot read the Shed Plate but around that time it was at 6J Holyhead.

 

I count myself very lucky to get this next one. It is a Fowler outside cylinder 0-6-0 Dock Tank on its way back to Fleetwood. There were two allocated there. I don't expect they travelled on an open stretch of track very often.

 

 

9F 2-10-0 No. 92017 with coal destined no doubt for the Power Station a few miles to the South of Fleetwood. Shed plate is 26A Newton Heath, Manchester.

[ArthurK]

TREALES 30TH SEPTEMBER 1961

 

Later the same year on the 30th September a number of specials were scheduled into Blackpool carrying their passengers to the Blackpool Illuminations. The following were taken whilst waiting for the highlight of the day to arrive.

 

 

LMS Class 5 again, this time No. 45033 with one of the excursions.

 

LMS Patriot No. 45515 "Caernavanon" with an outward bound train.

 

 

BR Standard 2-6-2T No. 84017 with a local train to Preston. There were a number of this class shedded locally. This like others in the class is fitted with Push/Pull gear for the shuttle service between Fleetwood and Kirkham. The first coach is a Gresley three compartment brake.

 

Behind 84017 but on the fast lines we have Jubilee No. 45587 "Baroda".

 

Royal Scot No. 46126 " Royal Army Service Corps" at the head of another special.

 

Hughes designed 2-6-0 "Crab" No. 42928 on yet another special.

 

Br Standard "5" No. 73130 at the head of a special consisting entirely (?) of Gresley wooden bodied stock . Most are late build with angle iron trusses rather than the older tiebars. They had most probably departed from West Yorkshire. Excursions from there to Blackpool were very popular at this time, often headed by LNER locos.

[Michael Delamar]

I love that shot of the fowler dock tank!

 

cheers

 

Mike

[ArthurK]

TREALES 30TH SEPTEMBER 1961

 

To finish off the posts for this day I have two colour slides of the specials that we were waiting for.

 

The first to arrive was double headed by the Midland Compound and a Patriot aptly chosen as 45548 "Lytham St. Annes".

 

The climax was the arrival of non other than A4 60022 "Mallard" at the head of the "Northern Rubber Special". Not too sure how far this had come but I believe it was from South Yorkshire are.