Help with Timber setting out

[Chris Dark]

Hello everyone, I wonder if anybody would be able to help me in regards to my sleeper arrangement on my Templot layout. I have areas where the sleepers overlap or If I join two tracks there is an odd spacing at one end. I have tried rolling the sleepers but doesn't seem to do the job. I have attached my Templot file as well as screenshots in the hope it makes things clearer.

 

PS I also notice turnout sleepers are wider than plain track, is this usuall or a setting I am unaware of?

 

Thanks

8ft X 2ft.box

[hayfield]

Chris

 

Firstly turnout sleepers are 12" wide and plain track is 10" wide.

 

To move/ omit/ increase length of timbers you need to go to real on the tool bar, then shove timbers

 

To alter a turnout sleepers, this is what you need to do

 

1  Ctrl + P (park) will save the work to date

2  Left click on the item to be altered, then left click on delete to control

3  left click on REAL on the toolbar, then right click on shove timbers.

 

Now you can play with the sleepers

 

4  Once you have done all the alterations,  do Ctrl + V  then Ctrl + R to restore the work

 

If you need to alter something else go through the same process, if its a length of track them F4 to alter the length

 

Print off the function Key chart as its very useful

[Chris Dark]

Thanks very much for that.

Is it normal that the turnout sleepers are wider? I can't say I've noticed it when looking at real life trackwork, but then again I was never looking out for it.

 

Where the sleepers go under the rail on the next track should I cut them back or does it not make a difference?
 

Sorry for the questions but as well as learning Templot I am trying to get the grips with trackwork workings as well.

[martin_wynne]

Hi Chris,

 

See also my reply to your post on Templot Club: http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=2342&forum_id=22&jump_to=15617#p15617

 

The bearers under plain track are called sleepers. They are 10 inches wide and for the last 90 years or so they have been 8ft-6in long.

 

The bearers under pointwork are called crossing timbers or usually just timbers. They are 12 inches wide and various lengths increasing in 6 inch steps from 8ft-6in. They are also thicker than sleepers. (6in thick instead of 5in thick -- this is normally ignored in modelling because it makes tracklaying more difficult.)

 

These are the traditional dimensions for wooden timbering. Modern concrete bearers may differ in dimensions.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[martin_wynne]

1  Ctrl + P (park) will save the work to date

2  Left click on the item to be altered, then left click on delete to control

4  Once you have done all the alterations,  do Ctrl + V  then Ctrl + R to restore the work

 

Hi John,

 

These instructions are from a very old version of Templot. They do still work, but most users are now using Templot2 which makes it much easier. It's much better to advise beginners using the current version of any program. I can't understand why it's such an uphill struggle to get everyone to upgrade to Templot2 when the latest version is a lot easier to use.

 

You can now swap between templates by clicking on the required one and then clicking make the control on the left or simply pressing the M key. You don't need to park anything or restore it afterwards.

 

Chris:

 

1. click real > shove timbers menu item.

 

2. click on the background template which you want to adjust.

 

3. click make the control to start shoving its timbers.

 

 

4. then click on the next background template which you want to adjust.

 

5. then click make the control to start shoving that one's timbers.

 

And so on.

 

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[hayfield]

Martin

 

Thank you. so much simpler will save plenty of time. I am using Templot 2 now but have not much od an idea as to the new Templot 2 functions.

[Chris Dark]

I am just following this up after having a play with the timbers. I note that the timbers on pointwork are wider and space closed together than plain track. Is this left and modeled in such a way? I am having trouble with spacing the timbers so they don't cross which isn't helped by the different timber width and spacings. I have tried rotating certain timbers to aid in this after looking at pictures on the net but nothing I come up with "looks right".

 

can anybody point me in the right direction please.

 

Thanks

[martin_wynne]

Hi Chris,

 

You are asking for a detailed guide to the timbering of junctions and complex formations. Unfortunately as far as I know, no-one has yet written such a thing. Practices varied across different companies and periods. Templot provides full controls to adjust the size and position of every timber if you want to do so (called "timber shoving") but it is up to you to know what you want for your chosen prototype and location. There is no right or wrong beyond the basic principles that all the special chairs must be supported on a timber in the right place, all timbers should be capable of being packed when needed, and the rails must be held to gauge. Photographs can be a good guide.

 

I have written some general notes on the subject from time to time, see for example these links: 

 

http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=720&forum_id=1

 

http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_postx.php?post_id=2272

 

http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_postx.php?post_id=6920

 

from which:

 

If I were to draw a cross-over from one line to the other in double track, would Templot draw all the interlaced sleepers?

 

Templot includes full controls to create custom timbering layouts (called "timber shoving"), but it doesn't do it for you. That's because there is an infinite number of prototype permutations, and only you know what you want. When you click "make crossover" Templot automatically leaves a space in the timbering on one side, to remind you that some timber shoving will be needed to extend long timbers across from the other side. It's quite quick to do -- just click on the timber's number and then press the L key (lengthen) a few times. Each press adds 6" (scale) to the length.

If you wish, every individual timber and sleeper in Templot can be adjusted for exact size and position, but normally it's only necessary to adjust a few of them where they conflict.

Here's an example of a printed template from Templot, showing long timbers and the results of some timber shoving:


 

What would the maximum length likely to be for such timbers? They were obviously an expensive item.

 

Crossing timbers were normally available to designers in lengths from 8ft-6in (or previously 9ft in pre-grouping times) in increments of 6in up to 30ft. The very long timbers were expensive, and different companies had different rules about how many could be used. Some were very sparing with long timbers. Comparing an LNER drawing for a crossover with a GWR equivalent, you can see the latter used far more long timbers and produced much more heavily-timbered formations generally.

Sometimes where a long timber was required it was made up on site by halving and splicing two shorter ones, using bolted-through fishplates top and bottom as stiffeners.

For a single turnout, the usual rule was that crossing timbers stop at 16ft* length, after which normal sleepering is used, with the sleeper ends interlaced as necessary. Timbers up to that length would normally be held as a stock item by the railway company, longer timbers being ordered from suppliers as needed.

*17ft for GWR renewals before about 1930.

p.s. the longest timber in the template above is 26ft-6in.

 

I find that most of the track combinations that I require cause clashes of sleepers between templates which cannot be simply resolved by rolling sleepers.

Clearly the resolution is to use the shove timbers functions, however I have not been able to find a source of information/ set of rules for setting out sleepers prototypically.

We've been here before.

See: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/templot/message/8313

and subsequent discussion.

To get that message into the site search for reference, here it is again:
_________

I can see that the 'shove timbers' function depends
upon you knowing where they should be shoved to!
Is there a standard reference document to work from/to?If only! Timbering a complex formation is something of
a black art. When you think you know something about it,
along comes a photograph showing the exact opposite.

Some guiding principles:

Special switch and crossing chairs can fit the rails only
at pre-determined positions. They must have some timber
under them. This often means using more timbers, or wider
timbers, so that the chairs are firmly supported and the
chair screws are not too near to the edge of a timber.

Timbers should be as near as possible at right-angles to
the rails. This creates the strongest track, able to resist
gauge-spread. This is especially important on curved tracks.

Timbers must be able to be packed up level if necessary.
This means that the gang must be able to dig out under
them, insert jacks, and place fresh ballast. This is very
difficult to do if timbers are very close together side by
side or end to end.

Rail joints are the weakest parts of the track. Timbers on
each side of a rail joint should be as close together as
possible. This generally means joint timbers are spaced
at no more than 25" centres, so that a standard fishplate
just fits between the chairs.

There is more about timbering practice in these messages:

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/templot/message/5006

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/templot/message/3259

but we are still waiting for the definitive guide. Anyone?
_________

Before even beginning the shoving, it's sometimes worth seeing if a different basic timbering style would help. More about that at:

 http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=394&forum_id=1#p2272

regards,

Martin.

[martin_wynne]

Hi Chris,

 

 

To establish the rail lengths and sleeper spacing across plain track template boundaries you use the roll rails and sleepers functions:

 

The pop-up menu for a plain track background template has functions for rolling rails and sleepers. Click the roll rails to match > background template menu items. This makes it possible to have prototypical rail lengths and sleeper spacings flowing correctly across template boundaries.

 

The control template is adjusted to match the joints and timbering on the selected background template. If you have a string of templates, you can work along them adjusting each in turn to match the previous one, creating a long run of track with correctly spaced rail joints.

 

 

In the screenshot above the plain tracks are currently set for 13 sleepers per 30ft rail length. The background template on the left has a partial rail length of 5 sleepers between the final rail joint and the template boundary ( sleepers A14 to A18 ). The adjoining control template on the right has a full length of 13 sleepers at the boundary. To make a proper match across the boundary, only 8 sleepers are needed here. Also the sleeper spacing at the boundary is noticeably disrupted.

 

 

In the second screenshot, after using the roll rails to match function, 8 sleepers (N1 to N8 ) have been rolled-in in front of the first rail joint on the control template. The result is a full rail length of 13 sleepers ( 5+8 ) across the boundary, and the sleeper spacing at the boundary is now correct.

 

There are a few restrictions, and you need to work methodically:

 

Both the control template and the selected background template must be plain track templates. To use this function for the approach or exit tracks on a turnout or half-diamond template, you must first split them off as separate plain track templates -- use the tools > make split > menu items.

 

You can work from either the CTRL-0 or CTRL-1 end of the background template, but the rolled in rail length applies only to the CTRL-1 end of the control template. Before using this function you may need to do template > swap end-for-end on the control template to bring the CTRL-1 end to the required boundary. This end is marked across with a line to aid identification. Press the HOME key a few times to flash the current template on and off so that you are sure you have it the right way round. Note that the position of the fixing pegs is immaterial for this function.

 

Both templates must be set for the same prototypical rail length. It would be meaningless to use this function if the templates are using different lengths of rail. The rail length setting is at real > plain track options > rail lengths and sleeper spacings... menu item.

 

As with timber shoving, adding slip roads, etc., this is a function to use when your track plan is finalized. Otherwise you risk your work being wasted if you make subsequent changes to the length of a template, insert additional turnouts, etc.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

 

Above copied from: http://www.templot.com/martweb/pug_info_2.htm

[Chris Dark]

To follow this up, Is it possible to print the chair positioning for plain track and turnouts? I have tried this via REAL > CHAIRS/BASEPLATES but the only option It will allow me to sellect is NO CHAIRS. Can someone explain why?

[martin_wynne]

Hi Chris,

 

The chaired option is intended for future developments. It is currently marked n/a (not available). You can enter some chair dimensions, but they are used only in the 3D settings for DXF export to raise the rail above the timbers.

 

Prototypically, providing full chairing detail is a minefield of different periods, practices and chair designs. Don't hold your breath.

 

For standard REA chairing the best way to proceed is to use the excellent Exactoscale drawings as a reference resource (PDF files):

 

 

You can if fact use Templot to curve them and print them under the templates as background picture shapes like this:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Templot trackpad view:

 

 

 

 

More information and screenshots here: http://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=25066#p25066

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[Chris Dark]

Thanks again for the comprehensive answer Martin, I made a visit to C&L on Monday and baught my first turnout kit which comes with a template and chair positions. The plan is to use that kit for 1 of my turnouts on the layout, I will use the template I recieved as well as the information you have just gave me to do my best

 

Thanks again

[hayfield]

Chris

 

What kit did you buy (C&L or Exactoscale)

 

If C&L you can enhance it by using Exactoscale special chairs. Looking at your first post it seems 00-SF, if so you can enhance it (providing you are using 3 or 4 bolt chairs) as per the special chairs Martin has added to the plan.

 

The Exactoscale special chairs whilst designed for their P4 kits can be used for EM and 00 gauges as well.

 

The additional switch rail chairs (which are used after the normal slide rail chairs for 3 to 4 more chairs) include the block chairs as per the plan

 

Common crossing chairs have the correct chairs for the x,y ,a,b,c &d crossing chairs 

 

Both these are well worth the additional expense, Exactoscale also make the small chairs, but you have to buy a pack of 100.

 

Exactoscale also do check rail chairs, BUT only working ones for P4. The 0.8 mm ones can be cut in half (much the same as you alter the standard C&L chairs) and reset to 1 mm for EM & 00-SF

 

There are sheets available from C&L giving the positions and chairs for both Check rail and common crossings but I cannot find them on the site.

 

Exactoscale also do chairs for diamond crossings, single and double slips. Again designed for their P4 kits but realy usefull in EM, 00_SF & 00 gauges, so much better than chopping up standard chairs

[Chris Dark]

I can't tell you the full name of the kit off the top of my head but as far as I am aware it was a standard C&L B6 turnout kit, 3 bolt chairs, to be made to 00-SF standards. I stayed away from any customization due to the fact that it is my first attempt and wanted it to be as straight forward as possible. I presume I shouldn't need to modify anything in the kit I bought?

[hayfield]

Chris

 

Sounds like you have a standard C&L kit. Perhaps a good decision to keep to the basics for the first one.

 

You will have to alter some of the chairs where rails are very close together so 2 chairs cannot fit into the gap (some switch and common crossing chairs) also when fitting the check rails. Just follow the instructions, also I think there is a step by step video on the C&L site.

 

Any queries just post the question and one of us will advise

 

Good luck

[martin_wynne]

I can't tell you the full name of the kit off the top of my head but as far as I am aware it was a standard C&L B6 turnout kit, 3 bolt chairs, to be made to 00-SF standards. I stayed away from any customization due to the fact that it is my first attempt and wanted it to be as straight forward as possible. I presume I shouldn't need to modify anything in the kit I bought?

 

Hi Chris,

 

If you want to build it to 00-SF standards you must discard the track gauges included in the kit (if any). The C&L track gauges are for the DOGA-Fine standard which requires the wheels on your RTR models to be modified to a wider back-to-back.

 

The 00-SF standards don't require you to do that, they work with RTR models as supplied. Alternative track gauges for 00-SF are available -- see: http://00-sf.org.uk

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[Chris Dark]

Hi Martin, John,

 

I have started building tonight and so far so good, I am threading the chairs onto the rail but have become slightly confused. The kit comes with running chairs and slide chairs which is all fine, I am using the template picture along with insutructions to understand where each needs to go and in which direction. The problem I have come to are the bridge chairs. To me they don't look like half of running chair nor slide chairs. How would I go about constructing these? All the other types of chair can be visually made by amending one or the other provided chairs.

 

I would like to stick with what I have been given in the pack just to keep things as simple as possible. hopefully if this is a success I can then start to play around with different products to see what works best for me.

 

Thanks very much for all your help.

[hayfield]

Chriss

 

Exactoscale make bridge chairs (Exactoscale and C&L chairs are interchangeable) and can be used with the C&L chairs.

 

C&L instructions just say trim normal chairs to length, which is what everyone did until the Exactoscale special chairs arrived.

 

On both the C&L and the Scalefour plan that Martin posted the bridge chairs are shown (Scalefour marked L1)

 

The Scalefour plan also shows the common crossing chairs X,Y,A,B,C & D. These chairs are available in the Exactoscale Common Crossing chair pack. You can use cut in half normal chairs but the A chair is different also X,C & D chairs are a type of block chair and the central part is totally different 

 

This also applies to the slide chairs. The chairs C&L supply are for the first 6 slide chairs (Marked P on the Scalefour plan) between these and the bridge chair you have chairs P1, P2, P3 & P4, Martin added block chairs on the plan. Again you can chop normal chairs to fit.

 

Exactoscale chairs were designed for their P4 kits, but you can use their normal, slide, bridge, small, switch and common crossing chairs in 00. EM & P4 gauges. You can also adapt the 0.8mm check-rail (CC on the Scalefoure plan) chairs for EM and 00-SF. gauges

[Chris Dark]

Thanks for the quick reply, That confirms what I thought in regards to cutting the normal chairs to suite, I just wanted to double check before I glued down my first rail. For this turnout I will stick to whatevers in the pack, I want to go back to C&L the monday before xmas so I will enquire about the Exactoscale chairs. This layout is mainly to try handbuilt track and play with scenics so not too fussed if things differ slightly.

 

Hopefully by the weekend I will be able to post pictures of the finished product