Hornby's "Railmaster Loco Detection System"

[SHMD]

The recent "Hornby-Announcements" have had a lot of people excited but, for some reason, not many noticed (or got excited by) the following:-

 

Railmaster Loco Detection System

 

R8306 Pack contains: LD Module, 1Pk LD Tag Strips, 4 x LD Track sensors. £79.99
R8307 LD Module £69.99
R8308 LD Track Sensor £ 7.50
R8309 LD Tag Strip £ 9.99
R**** LD Track Sensor Transformer £ 9.99

 

As lifted from Andy's thread (post 4) :-

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/79822-2014-Hornby-announcements/

 

 

Now, I don't have any more info than the rest of you but this could open up the whole “Layout Automation” thing to the masses!

Let’s hope anyway!

 

Now depending on what their system uses (sounds like reflective strips but could be magnets/Active IR/something else?) you could even use bits of their system and incorporate it into your own “home brewed” system.

 

But we really would like more details so, when I come across them, I will post them here.

 

 

Kev.

 

[richard brown]

This is not showing on the Hornby website I will send them a email to see what they say

 

Richard

[TartanTrax]

The recent "Hornby-Announcements" have had a lot of people excited but, for some reason, not many noticed (or got excited by) the following:-

Railmaster Loco Detection System

R8306 Pack contains: LD Module, 1Pk LD Tag Strips, 4 x LD Track sensors. £79.99

R8307 LD Module £69.99

R8308 LD Track Sensor £ 7.50

R8309 LD Tag Strip £ 9.99

R**** LD Track Sensor Transformer £ 9.99

As lifted from Andy's thread (post 4) :-

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/79822-2014-Hornby-announcements/

 

Now, I don't have any more info than the rest of you but this could open up the whole “Layout Automation” thing to the masses! Let’s hope anyway!

Now depending on what their system uses (sounds like reflective strips but could be magnets/Active IR/something else?) you could even use bits of their system and incorporate it into your own “home brewed” system.

Getting excited by a Hornby announcement? I stopped doing that when I was about 14 years old. Since then they seem to have produced a long line of disappointments.

 

They produced the Elite capable of generating a RailCom cutout and their Sapphire decoders which are pretty good to excellent. Then, despite the "RailCom compatible" claims on the Elite boxes, they cripple this feature to the point that the Elite firmware only produces a cutout when reading CVs. CV reading is something the programming track can also do. Is it really RailCom compatible?

 

Then they decide they want to do Locomotive Detection - something a change to their Elite firmware could already achieve, as could their Sapphire decoders. Adding local detectors would have given them a very viable solution especially if linked to their software. Instead they decide it would be better business to dream up something new in order to sell more hardware to the punters out there. The description of this system sounds somewhat reminiscent of the Uhlenbrock Lissy system where barcodes stuck under locomotives are read by the scanning LEDs on the tracks. It may be worth remembering that Lissy was so flawed that they then brought out their Marco RailCom system. Maybe that's Hornby's plan too?

[model-trains]

Hornby have confirmed they have come up with 2 loco detection systems and they are currently awaiting patents.

 

It all sounds very exciting, the system looks powerful sadly this is reflected in the retail prices. We will just have to wait and see once it is available later this year.

[model-trains]

LOCO DETECTION UPDATE

Hornby magazine May 2014

DCC Handbook - page5

Hornby loco detection system is made up of 3 components, a loco detection module, track sensors and locomotive detection tags.

Each LDM is designed to plug into a USB port on a PC and can read up to 48 track sensors. Additional LDM's can be connected to read more sensors.

The track sensors require a 1mm hole to be drilled through a sleeper for installation.

The detector tags can be fitted to the underside of the locomotives, and the system will work with up to 106 encoded tags at any one time. As a tag passes a sensor it passes data to RM about which locomotive. If you have more than 106 locos you can duplicate the detection tags on other models not in use at that time. 

Loco detection is expected to be available later this year. Prices are yet too be confirmed, but it is anticipated

track sensors 10 GBP,

detection tags 30 GBP (for all 106),

loco detection module 80 GBP

Loco detection will be able to switch signals as a train passes the sensor, stop or alter train speed according to signal state etc.

This is the latest information, source as above.

I wonder if the Eureka moment was the 1mm hole through the sleeper, sounds neat though, it would not have been aesthetically pleasing to see tags all over the place.

 

It sounds pretty good, no isolated blocks to set up just work out blocks/zones to match longest rake and plan from there.

[model-trains]

Hi Guys (and Gal's)  

 

HAS ANYONE USED LOCO DETECTION?

 

I am seriously considering the Hornby Loco Detection system out later this year

 

There are a lot of commands in RailMaster for Loco Detection already but obviously not all, the system excites me but, I also have concerns. Will the system tell RM where a loco is, or will it just say a train passed over a sensor?

 

Hornby RailMaster, Loco Detection commends currently include (ready for new version to be released RailMaster Pro)

 

On signal green

On signal red

For Locos;

For train type(s)

For forward direction

For reverse direction

For any direction

Stop loco 

Stop loco on signal

Resume loco on signal

Reduce loco speed to

Increase loco speed to

Set to cruise speed

Switch right point

Switch left point

Set clear signal

Set danger signal

Activate loco function

Play sound file

Run program file

 

Above instruction then followed by a command

 

 

 

The Hornby manual for RailMaster says...  Loco Detection will allow RailMaster to know where each loco is on your track and to take action accordingly. This allows locos to stop at the correct position each time at stations and to set signals automatically when a loco passes a point. So we assume it will know which loco has passed over which sensor and each sensor can be individually programmed to say, train 012 do this and that, train 034 do that, this and the other, so to speak.

 

Has anyone used Loco Detection by another manufacturer? With JMRI or other system?

 

How did you find the system? What did you consider before starting to install the system? What did you find hardest? What other frustration did you have?

 

I am assuming the best way will be, first consider the maximum length of a train and carriages and allocate a block to this size plus a bit more. Divide each loop or track length into blocks. Position sensors according to the blocks, not to close to points, probably set back a little near signals, or may be just before them.

 

The problem I am foreseeing, is speed of loco and position of sensors. When I say speed I am referring more to slowing down, steam trains take longer to stop than DMU's etc.  For longer block lengths would it be advisable to add another sensor between the two block marker sensors, to slow speed and make a sound if necessary? For shorter block length I am thinking speed control would have to start at least another signal/sensor/block position back.

 

Did you find this or any other problem? How did you get round the problems?

 

Comments welcome please   from members who have Loco Detection, for those installing it now or for those thinking about Loco Detection.

[GRC]

I'm a user of railmaster and also looking forward to the train detection system. My assumption based on what I've read so far is that the detector will

 

A) identify the train ?

B) identify where the marked item is on the track.

 

My expectation is that I will fit the detectors where at least for stopping there is enough room for the normal deacceleration curve to come into play, so yes longer for steam than diesel/electrics. Suspect this will take some tuning both of the correct location for the sensor and potentially some tweaking of the curves. Alternative is for a second detector and force a hard stop but don't like this although could be useful pulling into a station at a slower speed say.

 

Going to be interesting to see how this works. The basic programming as it exists now in Rm is ok and easy to do so this should just make it better (he says hopefully)

 

Anyone think that the "train detection" will actually show the train on the mimic plan on screen?

[model-trains]

Hi GRC

 

Nice to chat with other RailMaster users as well as those who may have knowledge through using other systems.

 

The system sounds really good but, we only know what features are in RM now for loco detection and what has been written here and there.

 

I am thinking the biggest single problem will be stopping distance and have already started to run my trains and calculate where they stop just going from 50, 60 or 65mph depending which steam train. I think I will be changing top speed to 50mph as the stopping distance is so great. I like it that you have added additional sensors to stop the trains, these not being in the main block but, I think it is also down to layout size. The bigger the layout the longer the blocks but I suppose the longer the rake also so maybe that takes away that argument  ;-)

 

I think speed will be controlled not from the sensor in the block just entering as passing over a sensor but from the previous one. Mine is not a large layout so I think I will only have 4 blocks in an oval, this means two blocks with trains in and two leading to them without trains controlled by previous signalling. But even here you may need a final stop sensor, as you say in a station or in a siding.

 

I do not think, although it was what I first hoped for, that the loco detection first edition will include the mimic plan. To me it should pick up a loco and show where the train is on the plan by pass over a sensor and showing the train on the plan in that position. I think that will be 12 months, depending on the popularity of the first edition and of course suggestions put forward. It will leave them room to charge for an upgrade.

 

many thanks for your comments, they are good. Hopefully others will join in, I think loco detection is exciting, I know there are people out there that have installed it with other systems, hopefully they will comment also.

[model-trains]

I'm a user of railmaster and also looking forward to the train detection system. My assumption based on what I've read so far is that the detector will

A) identify the train ?

B) identify where the marked item is on the track.

My expectation is that I will fit the detectors where at least for stopping there is enough room for the normal deacceleration curve to come into play, so yes longer for steam than diesel/electrics. Suspect this will take some tuning both of the correct location for the sensor and potentially some tweaking of the curves. Alternative is for a second detector and force a hard stop but don't like this although could be useful pulling into a station at a slower speed say.

Going to be interesting to see how this works. The basic programming as it exists now in Rm is ok and easy to do so this should just make it better (he says hopefully)

Anyone think that the "train detection" will actually show the train on the mimic plan on screen?

Hi

 

I cannot help but wonder about the forced hard stop. Will this be possible, a forced hard stop is an emergency stop when everything stops. If I click stop on my steam loco it cuts motor and free wheels till stopped. That is the type of stop I think will be included which means we have to calculate where a train stops using set speeds at certain sensors.

 

Do you think this would be the situation?

[model-trains]

I have just cheched RM Manual for the definition of STOP. It states...

 

The stop is carried out in a smooth manner, rather than a sudden stop. This is based on the deacceleration CV setting in the locomotives decoder.

 

I assume then we given an instruction at a previous sensor loco xxx speed xx and see where it stops. Then adjust the speed at the sensor until it stops in the right place. If over shooting the stop position we may have to reduce speed at a previous sensor. I don't know what your thoughts are on this.

 

Ref: RM PDF Manual page 78, heading STOP.

[model-trains]

I just thought I better add the following as a new version of the RailMaster software is due out April/May this year.

 

Ref: RM PDF Manual page 78, heading STOP in the last post refers to the current version of the software version 1.55

[centraltrains]

Did this ever come out?

[SHMD]

Did this ever come out?

 

Good question. I'd completely forgotten about it!

 

 

Kev.

[RAF96]

Not yet but its still on the agenda apparently.

Rob

[model-trains]

Did this ever come out?

 

No, we are still waiting. I think Hornby worked out LD stands for  'Long Delay' 

[model-trains]

Not yet but its still on the agenda apparently.

Rob

 

Agenda starts with 'A' maybe some wait before we get to 'L' RAF     

[centraltrains]

Just a thought, If this was planned to be using NFC (which looks likely given sensors and a fag strips), maybe the delay is due to technical limitations? I have an NFC sensor as am working on a database for model train maintenance (using NFC tags to identify trains), and when I move the tags over the sensor, it takes about half a second to a second for the tag to be read. I wonder if with the speed of some model trains, this is just too quick and makes it currently not feasible to use this type of method?

[NIK]

Just a thought, If this was planned to be using NFC (which looks likely given sensors and a fag strips), maybe the delay is due to technical limitations? I have an NFC sensor as am working on a database for model train maintenance (using NFC tags to identify trains), and when I move the tags over the sensor, it takes about half a second to a second for the tag to be read. I wonder if with the speed of some model trains, this is just too quick and makes it currently not feasible to use this type of method?

 

Hi,

 

It could be NFC. A number of people in MERG including myself are looking at NFC as a cheaper alternative to 125khz RFID but range is a problem when the trains are moving fast.

 

I think Hornby mentioned the sensors would fit above the sleepers. So they can't be more than ~12mm wide.

A 12mm wide NFC reader antenna might not have a lot of range so reading at speed could be a problem.

 

The mention of a maximum 106 loco codes doesn't seem to be a limitation of NFC - there are trillions of Unique IDs in the NTAG213 protocol for example.

 

Based on the limited number of loco codes my guess would be some sort of magnetic or infrared bar code but the 106 code limit may come from any scheme that Hornby use to connect the sensors together. Magnetic (non radio frequency (RF) type) or Infrared might reduce the testing requirements compared to an RF solution.

 

Another guess is the chap at Hornby who came up with TTS decoders is busy fixing the bugs in it and hasn't been able to finish the Loco Detection.

 

I would have thought Hornby would have wanted to encourage people to buy more locos by coming up with a loco detection system that goes to over 106. Unless Hornby are getting a cut down version of another companies detection system - but whose?.

 

PS The Midas Tiny 12 x 19mm NTAG213 NFC Sticker Tags seem to be able to read pretty quickly but some software used to interface to it can slow things down.

If the tag is at the extreme of range it might take longer to read the tag. A half to 1 second to read a tag seems very long.

 

On the cheap MFRC522 writer readers I've tried the tag has gone out of range in 100 milliseconds at a scale 120mph (OO).

The best results I've got so far with the cheap MFRC522 writer readers(modified)/modified software and Midas Tiny 12 x 19mm NTAG213 NFC Sticker Tags is a scale 112 mph (OO) with a Diesel loco with the sticker on the plastic fuel tank (250 laps of my DCC test track without a read failure).

 

 

Regards

 

Nick

[RAF96]

There is a picture of the LD sensor in one of the Hornby manuals and it looked like a combined IR led sitting between the sleepers. That is not to say that is the one that will be used after the famous Eureka moment that led to the current delay in LD appearing on the market.

 

 

Edit to add sensor picture.

Rob

 

Edited September 17, 2018 by RAFHAAA96

[NIK]

There is a picture of the LD sensor in one of the Hornby manuals and it looked like a combined IR led sitting between the sleepers. That is not to say that is the one that will be used after the famous Eureka moment that led to the current delay in LD appearing on the market.

 

 

Edit to add sensor picture.

Rob

 

3EA8AFB3-7B97-495E-B25B-AF674560673E.jpeg

 

Hi,

 

Many thanks for the photo. Any ideas what the white disc on a stick is - just a marker?.

 

If the technology is infrared barcode I don't suppose they've made allowance for DCC Concepts Powerbase magnets restricting the space under a chassis to fit a barcode.

 

What was the famous eureka moment that led to the current delay in LD appearing on the market?.

 

 

Regards

 

Nick

[RAF96]

@NIK post #20

No idea about any of those questions of yours, except to comment why would Hornby take account of DCC Concepts Powerbase. Nobody bothers about interfacing with anybody else when designing their own kit. Its hard enough getting couplings to work together.

Rob

[NIK]

@NIK post #20

No idea about any of those questions of yours, except to comment why would Hornby take account of DCC Concepts Powerbase. Nobody bothers about interfacing with anybody else when designing their own kit. Its hard enough getting couplings to work together.

Rob

 

Hi,

 

Good point. At our clubs open day on Saturday a Heljan Class 33/1 wouldn't couple to a Kernow 4-TC when using Kaydee buckeye couplings but another Heljan 33/1 would just couple to another.

 

 

Regards

 

Nick

[RAF96]

A 2 page spread just inside the cover of the January Hornby Magazine talks to ‘the long awaited loco detection system’ as one of the 2019 launches, but no further details about it.

 

Maybe the 7th January announcement of 2019 stuff will tell more.

Rob

[model-trains]

A 2 page spread just inside the cover of the January Hornby Magazine talks to ‘the long awaited loco detection system’ as one of the 2019 launches, but no further details about it.

 

Maybe the 7th January announcement of 2019 stuff will tell more.

Rob

 

 

After all this time, and the coming soon statements of the past, 'Maybe' is the word I think.

 

Maybe they will announce the launch, maybe their statement will be 'later in the year', which gives them up to 12 months. Brexit decisions should be sorted, Maybe!

 

One thing those anyone interested can bank on, the price will not be as stated at the top of this thread, 'double' comes to mind. ;o)

 

Some may say Maybe for sure it will be a lot more.

 

I cannot help but wonder how efficient the sensors will be, they say they are very small, dust etc? I also wonder about the tagging system, I can image it being difficult under some loco's and stock due to the unevenness below them, positioning level and at the right clearance could be an issue I think. Maybe, time will tell.

Edited December 19, 2018 by model-trains

[NIK]

A 2 page spread just inside the cover of the January Hornby Magazine talks to ‘the long awaited loco detection system’ as one of the 2019 launches, but no further details about it.

 

Maybe the 7th January announcement of 2019 stuff will tell more.

Rob

 

Hi,

 

Hopefully it will be a cheaper alternative to the Traintraxx model railway vehicle ID system that appears to use Chinese 13.56Mhz NFC readers and tags.

If the Hornby system when released is more sophisticated than the 110 loco limit/above sleeper sensor system they first announced I think it would be useful to those that use Rocrail or JMRI if Hornby published the data interface.

 

With the help of MERG members I've been modifying £1.50 Chinese 13.56Mhz NFC readers with the aim of including them in a very low cost RFID system.

The aim is to get a very low cost model railway vehicle ID system that can:

 

1) Fit under baseboards up to 12mm thick, up to 2mm thick cork (or 14mm total base thickness). Work through non metallic ballasts. Work with all track types that don't have a metallic base, will work with steel rails.

2) Work with OO and ideally N gauge and O.

3) Read data from tags at high speed (120 scale mph in OO).

4) Write data to tags at medium speed (60 scale MPH in OO).

5) Not read / write tags on vehicles on adjacent tracks.

6) Work with DC and DCC.

7) No mods to track or track wiring.

8) Very high reliability (ideally less than one read/write failure per 8 hours on a very busy layout with 30 reader/writers).

9) Thin tags, (will work with 12 x 19 mm tags for OO).

10) Close spacing between reader/writers without interference.

11) Immune to other wireless frequencies (Wifi, Bluetooth etc.).

 

Fourteen EDIT Radio to Digital modules have been successfully modified to make prototypes of that part END EDIT so far.

Initial OO speed tests have all been passed (>=300 laps over the reader/writer per test without failure).

 

If successful the details at the very least will be available to MERG members.

I definitely can't speak for MERG as a whole or the other MERG members working on parts of the system but my hope is if the system (reader-writer/ digital interface/small commercial NFC tags) proves popular the system electronics might appear as a MERG kit.

 

 

Regards

 

Nick

Edited December 21, 2018 by NIK