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So what is this all about then?


whart57

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Or as those who know me may be saying, "this isn't Thai, it isn't 3mm scale, what are you up to?"

 

Well indulging myself in something completely different. I have dabbled in 7mm scale narrow gauge in the past, mainly modelling 2' gauge industrials so it is not completely off the wall. However I never came up with a suitable layout concept to take it beyond just building a few kits. In the process though I acquired a number of books, was an original subscriber to Roy Link's Narrow Gauge and Industrial magazine and generally got a feel for that sort of railway. Living just a dozen miles from the Amberley Chalk Pits museum didn't do any harm either. So my interest in Industrial narrow gauge has some history.

 

Now on the layout front, I have a layout under construction. I wouldn't say it's an exhibition layout but exhibiting it is not ruled out. It's my Maenamburi layout based on modern, well nearly modern, Thailand railways. It's progressing as fast as one man jobs do, or at least as fast as one man jobs progress when nearly everything has to be researched, designed and built from scratch. Then I have a couple of 3mm scale projects but these are not intended to develop into layouts.

 

Maenamburi however is four metres long and setting up with the off stage bits of fiddle yard and loop requires another two metres. That is possible in my present abode which has downstairs rooms which can be opened up to ten metres long space. At my age though I have to recognise that some downsizing will be required some time and that in the next ten years or so I may find myself with a much less generous space in which to indulge my hobbies. Maenamburi will probably not fit and the idea of a terminus to fiddle yard 3mm scale layout does not appeal. Something else is needed.

 

The more I thought about large scale narrow gauge, the more I realised it need take up no more space than a OO set track layout. An industrial 0-4-0ST on 2' gauge is no bigger modelled to 7mm scale than a standard gauge tank modelled in OO. A 350mm radius curve, one of the sharpest in OO set track, works out as 50' radius in 7mm scale, which is quite generous for 2' gauge industrials. And why stick at 7mm scale, why not go further to 1:32 scale? This is a military modelling scale so figures, vehicles, oddments like tools and bottles are easily available.

 

I had already made an interesting discovery. Years ago I bought a Roy Link kit of a 7" Bagnall 0-4-0ST in 7mm scale and intended for 14mm gauge. I started building it but as usual with me other interests got in the way. Around that time too I obtained a small booklet on the Brede Waterworks tramway, an 18" gauge line used to carry coal and materials to the waterworks serving Hastings in Sussex. There was a drawing of the line's solitary locomotive, also a Bagnall product. I compared it to the drawing in the Link kit and discovered that for most of the major dimensions - wheel size, wheelbase, length, width, boiler length, firebox size - the larger Bagnall in 7mm scale and the smaller Brede Bagnall in 1:32 came out the same, give or take a millimetre. Obviously the cab needed to be made higher, and thus the funnel longer, but most of the Link kit could be used to make the Brede Bagnall in the larger scale. And 14mm gauge is almost spot on for 18" gauge in 1:32.

 

A second impetus came from a most unlikely source, Channel Five's Great Model Railway Challenge. I was a team captain in the second series. Those not involved in the programme are probably not aware that teams have to submit their plans and make preparations for every round up to the final even though most teams are eliminated in the first round. We didn't make it beyond the first round but had we made it to the final we had an off the wall design where instead of vanilla OO we would use OO gauge track, actually PECO On16.5, and model large scale (1:32) narrow gauge. The theme was "Surprise surprise" so we thought one surprise would be that every figure on the last layout would be a giant compared to the OO figures seen earlier. Obviously we couldn't buy locos and stock so the plan was to hack some Hornby Smokey Joes into something vaguely narrow gauge and resin cast some suitable wagons. The wagon type I chose was the War Dept four wheelers from Deptford which ended up on the Sand Hutton line. And I had made the master out of Plastikard. It seems a shame not to use it.

 

image.png.e93c05ea60739d45e085582e2f02753a.png

 

The Brede Tramway booklet also provides a framework for my tramway. The Brede tramway initially ran from a wharf on the River Brede. This wharf was at the limit of navigation and was served by barges coming up from Rye Harbour. These barges brought the materials for building the waterworks and then, for about twenty years, also the coal for the pumping station. From the wharf the tramway headed across the fields to a small depot where the loco was maintained. This was also the closest point the road got to the waterworks, and in the later years of operation coal was brought to this point by steam lorry. From the depot the line set off again across the fields to the pumping station. These features, wharf, depot, etc can all be modelled in a relatively small space as cameos, and that is how my thinking is headed at the moment.

 

First off though I need to build the stock

Edited by whart57

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What an excellent protoype to choose; I shall watch with interest.

 

I'm pretty certain that RCL designed his Bagnall kit to work in at least two gauges/scales, although I thought it became a bigger loco than the teeny little Sipat class in 1/32 ........ perhaps I'm thinking of it in 1/35.

 

Is the booklet the one by Brian Clarke from a long time ago, maybe c1980? If so, I had the honour of contributing the additional material and drawing covering Hastings Waterworks' other railway, at Adams's Farm.

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One of several about 18” gauge railways that BC wrote/edited at that time. They broke what was then new ground for a lot of us, because there was hardly anything published about them outside snippets in NGRS and IRS journals up to then.

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Cracking photos. I don't think I've seen the one of the loco and wagon before.

 

But, is the Mercedes class loco a relevant inclusion? I've given my copy of the huge, fat Bagnall book away, and  my NG&IRM mags are packed away, so can't check, but I think Mercedesclass were signficantly bigger than Sipat class.

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Mercedes cylinders, I think 6"x9".

 

Sipat, I think 4" x 7.5".

 

This is from memory though.

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The Brede loco was a sort of pre-Sipat, with different valvegear IIRC, but the same general dimensions.

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Sorry,  no idea if "Mercedes" is relevant or not! - it was in the same wallet of photos as the others, so included it for completeness - I have a couple others of a vertical boiler engine with chain linked wheels which I think is Darwell Reservoir, can scan those as well if you like...

Best wishes

Richard

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I'm hijacking Whart's page here, so perhaps transfer to PM, but yes please, I would like to see the "probable Darwell" - that job used Sentinel locos, so VB would be right.

 

Several web references seem to say that the Brede loco was a Mercedes, which goes back to an article in TNG52 by Maurice Billington, but I think that later research changed that view. Best get the book!

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Thanks very much for the photos. As the heading suggests the layout is "inspired" by Brede and not an attempt to do an exact model therefore the loco needs to look the part without necessarily being 100% accurate. These photos will definitely help with that.

 

The photos of the wharf and other unloading points are especially valuable though. I've always found it's the industrial side of modelling industrial railways that is always the mystery area.

 

 

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10 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

I'm hijacking Whart's page here

 

 

That is not a problem for me

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Incidentally the photo of the wharf with the small sailing barge clearly shows that the River Brede was tidal at that point. Or at least tide-influenced. That ties in with the reports that the wharf could only be accessed on a couple of days around each spring tide.

 

The wharf is quite clearly shown with the tramway on the 1907 25" OS Map (thank you National Library of Scotland) and the rail layout is explained with that shot of the steam crane

 

image.png.b4cba335a67751d1f74a22cf08c0d9fc.png

 

The road is the modern A28 (which I know much better at the Thanet end) so presumably the barges had to lower the masts to reach the wharf

 

Edited by whart57
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Hi,

 

Here's the couple of photos I mentioned - I'm not certain where I got them from - I made copy negs probably 50 years ago! - They were copied from photos that came either from Michael Pope, who was the laboratory assistant at Rye Grammar School and lived near Doleham halt (I believe his mother had some connection with the railway) or from the proprietor of Landgate Cameras in Rye , Robert de st Croix.

 

cheers

 

Richard

IMG_20210521_0001.jpg

IMG_20210521_0002.jpg

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Very good photos indeed! Thank you.

 

Both are reproduced in the IRS Sussex & surrey handbook, where they are credited to George Alliez, who was a prolific photographer of industrial locos, and always kept really good notes - I've got a couple of prints from him, and they are carefully annotated on the back. The top one is S6894/1927, and the bottom S6900/1927, both new to County Borough of Hastings, and both used at both powdermill and Darwell Hole. The Darwell hole job included creating an aqueduct to Brede, so we might be on topic!

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Mmm,  just thinking the sentinel would be good in 16mm NG using the nylon chains (from Branchlines) like wot I used on my 1904 Pickering steam railcar in 7mm scale

 

On dear,  I mustn't start yet another project......

 

gallery_12271_4165_408371.jpg

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Delved into the NG&IRM magazines.

 

No. 93 is the edition with lots of info about Sipat class, including a drawing, and a summary of how it evolved from the Brede type.

 

No.117 contains a drawing of a Mercedes class, but what else it contains I don't know, because I can't actually find my copy!

 

Leading dimensions of Sipat: wheel diameter 1ft 3.5in; wheelbase 2ft 6in; length overall 10ft 4in; width overall 4ft 0in.

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4 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Leading dimensions of Sipat: wheel diameter 1ft 3.5in; wheelbase 2ft 6in; length overall 10ft 4in; width overall 4ft 0in.

 

I never kept on with NG&IRM after about issue 30 and I sold them anyway as part of a tidy up and rationalisation of my hobby room.

 

However comparing the Sipat with the Link kit - at 1:32 scale

 

Wheel diameter of kit:  0.5" - 16/32" - 16" on prototype or 1'4"

Wheelbase of kit:           15/16" - 30/32" - 30" on prototype or 2'6"

Width overall of kit:       1.5" - 48/32" - 48" on prototype or 4'

Length overall of kit:      3 19/32" - 115/32" - 9'7" on prototype

 

All pretty good I think. I had already worked out from the drawing in the Brian Clarke booklet that the front buffer beam needed to go forward a bit. A scale 9" it would seem

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I suspect that BC drew it from photos and leading dimensions. This is a Bagnall GA of Sipat herself, lifted from Station Road Steam website. Different valve gear and smoke box saddle, but probably otherwise very close to Brede.

 

2C635812-ADD2-44E7-8367-BC6139BE1F3F.jpeg.53a2cec36255659832db60a5a77bb7b0.jpeg

 

 

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Thank you for that.

 

The frame dimensions of the Link kit fit nearly perfectly, no more that 1/32" out. The overall length quoted earlier must be over any buffers

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Yes. RCL’s drawing includes the buffer/coupler blocks that Sipat was fitted with, and the cited dimension is over those.

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As a little exercise I have superimposed RCL's drawing of the 7" Bagnall that comes in the kit on top of the drawing you posted of the Sipat. I think my direction with this kit is well justified.

 

superimposed.png.5607134d6973aa584e23381e20de3dcd.png

 

I need to get out to the workshop shed and my lathe to turn a new chimney now.

 

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Very well justified indeed.

 

I'm now itching to see the outcome of this because, as you might have detected, I've long had a fondness for the Brede loco.

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As a further thought: although she has side-tanks, Rishra, preserved at Leighton Buzzard, is very close indeed to where you are heading. I now live only just down the road from LB, so if you need further and more detailed particulars as you go forward, I might well be able to help.

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The matching of these two different locos to be modelled in two different scales is so uncannily accurate that it seems to be beyond coincidence. Now I am not suggesting that Bagnall's designers were bearing in mind the needs of railway modellers of a century later, but I do note that the proportion between 7mm scale and 1:32 is almost the same as that between 18" gauge and 2' gauge, 0.74:1 as against 0.75:1. Would Bagnall's have kept the proportions of the key dimensions tied to the gauge of the loco they were building? Would we see the same proportions in their locos for 2'6" and 3' gauges?

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