Brassey
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Posts posted by Brassey
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1425, which I have modelled, was according to the register for 1912 "date sent from factory" 14/07/1910 and was at Leominster in early 1912 going to SW (Swindon Works) August 1912 which makes it 2 years between visits. Similarly, 835 was sent to Leominster 14/11/1910. 1427 had the longest gap of those in the area and had been at Shrewsbury since 15/10/1908 - so over 4 years. What work was undertaken at visits we do not know.
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40 minutes ago, Edwardian said:
The HMRS livery register (1967) also cites the Railway Magazine of October 1908, p.346, as the basis for its view that "It may have been as early as 1908 that the marked change to all-over brown took place. However, by 1909 it was well underway."
Interestering, it adds "This brown was a warmer shade than that used previously"
@Edwardian Is the quote from HMRS 1967 or The Railway Magazine October 1908?
In colour definition terms, a warmer shade is more red; ie Crimson Lake - what else is a warmer shade of brown?
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1 hour ago, melmerby said:
If you can find a copy of "Great Western Railway Magazine" from 1908!
Great Western Way has a direct quote from it:
Not in my 1978 edition of GWW. Page no.?
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On 01/05/2024 at 09:23, Miss Prism said:
Me too a bit. It would seem logical that crimson 517s would start to appear from 1912, to match the new carriage colour, but apparently that didn't happen, and crimson 517s didn't start to appear until '1919'. There was a bunch of stock in the 1908-12 brown with plenty of time left on the paintwork, so in that sense continuing with brown 517s makes some sense.
Here's narrow-tank 1157 on a Banbury-Kingham auto in 1922. The 70' trailer (looks like a diagram U) is probably in crimson lake. The loco, which is known to have appeared previously in brown, shows no signs of the cream back panel in the cab, unless it's just got grubby. So it could be in green, or brown, or crimson. Hmmm!
Mechanically, the loco is very typical of an early '20s 517.
The brown 517's were lined and this one is not and the dome is painted over so is probably green.
PS: I am a firm believer that there was never a "brown" carriage livery. Contemporary articles never report it as "brown" the closest is Chocolate Lake by which some much later correspondents may have inferred that shade to be brown. We do not know what colour chocolate was in 1908 even less when qualified by "Lake".
On the other side, there are absolutely no contemporary articles in 1912 reporting a change of colour. Many commentators give 1908 as the date of the change to Crimson Lake.
I will stand corrected if someone can produce an article dated 1908 or 1912 (or better still a colour photo!). One postcard show a reddish-brown but obviously has since faded. Or maybe there are some minutes in the archives at Kew from some painting committee that refers but that is really looking for a needle in a haystack.
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@EdwardianWell I might be wrong about the cabs but according to RCTS, 1160 received a long wheelbase in May 1901, ie before that livery was implemented, and 572 is not in the list of those that ever received it. So I don’t know whose models those are but neither are right.
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The brown locos predate the 1908 coach livery change and the external upper parts were originally cream to match the contemporary carriage colour scheme. IIRC 517s thus painted all had enclosed cabs
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Short wheelbase 835 bashed from an M&L kit:
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2 hours ago, Mikkel said:
As since pointed out by @Brassey, the brown livery on 517s can be distiguished by the cream cab interior (when it can be seen).
Like this:
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2 hours ago, Andy Keane said:
Doubt it was pig iron. So probably live pigs, interesting that it was important enough to figure in the WTT while cattle, broccoli and other traffic we know was handled does not. It rather suggests a special wagon formation so maybe a whole run of cattle wagons?
It might be worth following it in the WTT to see where it went onward from the junction.
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9 hours ago, Andy Keane said:
...when required, on Mondays a “Pig Train” ran from Helston up the branch in place of the normal goods working. I assume this must have been a run of Micas filled from the abattoir that was adjacent to the goods platform. Although I guess it could have been live pigs - not sure what wagon types would be used for live pigs. Why it ran at 1:20pm on Mondays I have no idea. Also since it would probably have needed specialist trucks it is not clear how they got to Helston as there is no mention of a down pig train in the WTT.
Likely to be live pigs otherwise it would be described as a meat train. In the absence of any other ideas, I guess they would have travelled in cattle wagons. In 1911 these would still be disinfected with a lime wash. Anyway an excuse for some cattle wagons.
But could it be pig iron? was Helston known to produce either?
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Here's a couple of examples of local diagrams for reference. These are from the Birkenhead Joint Line which actually runs close to where I live.
In the first there is no info on the GW formation but a break compo was attached for Euston which presumably would have been an LNWR vehicle.
The second has more detail including a Saloon and Milk Van that were attached daily to trains in both direction!
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@Andy KeaneThere is a WTT here that covers the Helston Branch:
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20 minutes ago, Andy Keane said:
Do you recall the catalogue reference for the diagram? I have been looking through it but I cannot see any obvious diagrams, but maybe that is not how the catalogue refers to them? The closest I can find is “Diagrams of Carriages Nos.25761A-140265” but I have no idea what that might contain.
The document is "programme of working of coaches in through trains". The only reference I can find in my stuff is RAIL 264 but looking online that appears to be staff records.
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1 hour ago, Andy Keane said:
Forgive my ignorance but where can one get sight of these sorts of tables? Might they exist for services along branch lines like Helston in the Edwardian period?
The carriage diagrams for local services are as rare as hens’ teeth. Main line diagrams less rare but all harder to find than Service Timetables. The one I quoted from is at the National Archive in Kew. They may have West Country branch line diagrams. Suggest searching the archive online.
I am lucky in that I model the joint line and the diagrams are in the LNWR Society archives.
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On 21/04/2024 at 09:51, Brassey said:
Here's another photo of GWR carriage at Lime Street that I put on FB to try to identify. This looks like a slip … Anyway I've got an excuse to build one now.
Looking through my stash, I have both a Bettabitz F9 Slip and a Falmouth Coupe. So no excuse.
I also have L10 Parcel Van and a PeterK TPO clerestory both of which could have run on the joint line. All these are sides only.
Better get building.
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On 21/04/2024 at 09:51, Brassey said:
...This looks like a slip but quite what a slip is doing at Lime Street one wonders. IIRC a functioning slip would have reservoirs on the roof. This hasn't but it could be something like a Falmouth Coupe which had windows in the end but got slip apparatus later. There was no slipping on the LNWR and we'll never know why it got to Lime Street but maybe that's why it was photographed. Anyway I've got an excuse to build one now.
I've never taken much notice of slips and their workings but when you think about it, once they got to their slipped destination, they were then treated as any other carriage and marshalled into trains onwards as such.
Dragging myself through the July 1912 slip workings, there were a couple of portions a day that were slipped at Wellington off trains heading for Birkenhead. These made their way then from Wellington to Manchester via Crewe (and presumably Shrewsbury) to be returned to Paddington the next morning direct from Manchester and the cycle began again. So there was probably a similar circuit, in another timetable, going to Liverpool. So a slip portion was probably not such a rarity at Lime Street after all.
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8 hours ago, Compound2632 said:
... except that the Midland carriage is allegedly a corridor composite rather than brake composite...This has the Great Western brake compo as a corridor carriage whereas in your 1912 document it appears not to be.
Unsurprisingly, there are some inconsistencies between the diagrams (and timetables) of different companies. The one I quoted is from the GWR but the LNWR/GWR Joint Line published their own as did the LNWR. I have spotted the odd discrepancy but they are quite rare. For example, a brake van left Euston for Merthyr but when it got to Shrewsbury it had become a Parcel Van. I think there was an overriding brief that a corridor coach should be used for such trains.
In the days before computers and the internet it must have been a challenge to co-ordinate all these movements between all the independent rail companies. And for this reason I guess the timetables didn't change much year upon year once established. I'm told that all the clerks got together at Earlestown once a year to thrash all this out.
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On 22/04/2024 at 04:30, Coach bogie said:
I needed a break from building 70 footers. As one of the etches was out I decided to build it.
Mike Wiltshire
Mike, looks impressive. so how long does it take you to build such a carriage? - I have a few Worsley Works carriages in my stash too.
Peter
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9 hours ago, Compound2632 said:
Exciting! (Apologies for thread drift!) What does note A say? Equally exciting is that the Midland brake compo for Plymouth has come from Bradford hand-in-hand with a Great Western brake compo for Kingswear. What date is this?
A is brake end trailing
B is brake end leading
X is corridor
"70" is 70 feet stock i.e. non Dean
The date is July 1912
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Here's another photo of GWR carriage at Lime Street that I put on FB to try to identify. This looks like a slip but quite what a slip is doing at Lime Street one wonders. IIRC a functioning slip would have reservoirs on the roof. This hasn't but it could be something like a Falmouth Coupe which had windows in the end but got slip apparatus later. There was no slipping on the LNWR and we'll never know why it got to Lime Street but maybe that's why it was photographed. Anyway I've got an excuse to build one now.
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Here's the carriage diagram for the 10:17 Crewe to Plymouth including 8 GW Brake Compos and one Midland some of which presumably were attached at Bristol. One solitary LNWR Van Third which went on to Penzance. I have a picture of somewhere of an LNWR coach at Penzance.
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Dr Duncan, as I model the North to West line, the most common coach that featured by far was GWR brake composite both corridor and non-corridor and thus they are high on my build list. IIRC, in Mr. Churchward's paper reproduced in Russell, he states that brake composites were introduced as through coaches (to the North). By my period (1912) 2nd class had gone so no active tri-comps though no doubt some compartments were still labelled 2nd class.
However, brake composites are largely ignored by the trade and one has to look hard to find any kits, so I will be following this thread with interest.
I do have some in my stash but have yet to build any. I am however becoming more familiar with the joys of the Dean 6'4" and 8'6" bogies and their scroll irons. Here to whet the appetite are some Dean carriages at the end of their journey deep into LNWR territory at Liverpool Lime Street.
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That looks more LNWR than LNER but it’s not a Prince tender; more like a Whale than a Bowen Cooke…
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Thanks all for your help. I have the pic of 3000 but none other. Time to get numbering…
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Dapol OO 14XX and 517 Class 0-4-2Ts
in Dapol
Posted
This has been discussed elsewhere and I am not alone in this view. Why would the GWR start to paint its prestigious trains in a colour that was associated with workmen trains? One opinion is that, at the time, paint technology was such that red was a hard shade to achieve and it took the GWR a number of years to master its application which they did by 1912...