Brassey

2 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

Doubt it was pig iron. So probably live pigs, interesting that it was important enough to figure in the WTT while cattle, broccoli and other traffic we know was handled does not. It rather suggests a special wagon formation so maybe a whole run of cattle wagons?

It might be worth following it in the WTT to see where it went onward from the junction. 

9 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

...when required, on Mondays a “Pig Train” ran from Helston up the branch in place of the normal goods working. I assume this must have been a run of Micas filled from the abattoir that was adjacent to the goods platform. Although I guess it could have been live pigs - not sure what wagon types would be used for live pigs. Why it ran at 1:20pm on Mondays I have no idea. Also since it would probably have needed specialist trucks it is not clear how they got to Helston as there is no mention of a down pig train in the WTT.

Likely to be live pigs otherwise it would be described as a meat train.  In the absence of any other ideas, I guess they would have travelled in cattle wagons.  In 1911 these would still be disinfected with a lime wash.  Anyway an excuse for some cattle wagons.

But could it be pig iron?  was Helston known to produce either?

Here's a couple of examples of local diagrams for reference.  These are from the Birkenhead Joint Line which actually runs close to where I live.

In the first there is no info on the GW formation but a break compo was attached for Euston which presumably would have been an LNWR vehicle.

The second has more detail including a Saloon and Milk Van that were attached daily to trains in both direction!

@Andy KeaneThere is a WTT here that covers the Helston Branch:

http://www.michaelclemensrailways.co.uk/?atk=631

20 minutes ago, Andy Keane said:

Do you recall the catalogue reference for the diagram? I have been looking through it but I cannot see any obvious diagrams, but maybe that is not how the catalogue refers to them? The closest I can find is “Diagrams of Carriages Nos.25761A-140265” but I have no idea what that might contain.

The document is "programme of working of coaches in through trains".  The only reference I can find in my stuff is RAIL 264 but looking online that appears to be staff records.

1 hour ago, Andy Keane said:

Forgive my ignorance but where can one get sight of these sorts of tables? Might they exist for services along branch lines like Helston in the Edwardian period?

The carriage diagrams for local services are as rare as hens’ teeth. Main line diagrams less rare but all harder to find than Service Timetables. The one I quoted from is at the National Archive in Kew. They may have West Country branch line diagrams. Suggest searching the archive online. 
 

I am lucky in that I model the joint line and the diagrams are in the LNWR Society archives. 

On 21/04/2024 at 09:51, Brassey said:

Here's another photo of GWR carriage at Lime Street that I put on FB to try to identify.  This looks like a slip … Anyway I've got an excuse to build one now.

Looking through my stash, I have both a Bettabitz F9 Slip and a Falmouth Coupe.  So no excuse. 

I also have L10 Parcel Van and a PeterK TPO clerestory both of which could have run on the joint line. All these are sides only. 
 

Better get building. 

On 21/04/2024 at 09:51, Brassey said:

...This looks like a slip but quite what a slip is doing at Lime Street one wonders.  IIRC a functioning slip would have reservoirs on the roof.  This hasn't but it could be something like a Falmouth Coupe which had windows in the end but got slip apparatus later.  There was no slipping on the LNWR and we'll never know why it got to Lime Street but maybe that's why it was photographed.  Anyway I've got an excuse to build one now.

 

I've never taken much notice of slips and their workings but when you think about it, once they got to their slipped destination, they were then treated as any other carriage and marshalled into trains onwards as such. 

Dragging myself through the July 1912 slip workings, there were a couple of portions a day that were slipped at Wellington off trains heading for Birkenhead.  These made their way then from Wellington to Manchester via Crewe (and presumably Shrewsbury) to be returned to Paddington the next morning direct from Manchester and the cycle began again.  So there was probably a similar circuit, in another timetable, going to Liverpool.  So a slip portion was probably not such a rarity at Lime Street after all.  

8 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

... except that the Midland carriage is allegedly a corridor composite rather than brake composite...This has the Great Western brake compo as a corridor carriage whereas in your 1912 document it appears not to be. 

 

Unsurprisingly, there are some inconsistencies between the diagrams (and timetables) of different companies.  The one I quoted is from the GWR but the LNWR/GWR Joint Line published their own as did the LNWR.  I have spotted the odd discrepancy but they are quite rare.  For example, a brake van left Euston for Merthyr but when it got to Shrewsbury it had become a Parcel Van.  I think there was an overriding brief that a corridor coach should be used for such trains. 

In the days before computers and the internet it must have been a challenge to co-ordinate all these movements between all the independent rail companies.  And for this reason I guess the timetables didn't change much year upon year once established.  I'm told that all the clerks got together at Earlestown once a year to thrash all this out.

On 22/04/2024 at 04:30, Coach bogie said:

I needed a break from building 70 footers. As one of the etches was out I decided to build it.

Mike Wiltshire

Mike, looks impressive.  so how long does it take you to build such a carriage? - I have a few Worsley Works carriages in my stash too.

Peter

9 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Exciting! (Apologies for thread drift!) What does note A say? Equally exciting is that the Midland brake compo for Plymouth has come from Bradford hand-in-hand with a Great Western brake compo for Kingswear. What date is this?

A is brake end trailing

B is brake end leading

X is corridor

"70" is 70 feet stock i.e. non Dean

The date is July 1912

Here's another photo of GWR carriage at Lime Street that I put on FB to try to identify.  This looks like a slip but quite what a slip is doing at Lime Street one wonders.  IIRC a functioning slip would have reservoirs on the roof.  This hasn't but it could be something like a Falmouth Coupe which had windows in the end but got slip apparatus later.  There was no slipping on the LNWR and we'll never know why it got to Lime Street but maybe that's why it was photographed.  Anyway I've got an excuse to build one now.

Here's the carriage diagram for the 10:17 Crewe to Plymouth including 8 GW Brake Compos and one Midland some of which presumably were attached at Bristol.  One solitary LNWR Van Third which went on to Penzance.  I have a picture of somewhere of an LNWR coach at Penzance. 

Dr Duncan,  as I model the North to West line, the most common coach that featured by far was GWR brake composite both corridor and non-corridor and thus they are high on my build list.  IIRC, in Mr. Churchward's paper reproduced in Russell, he states that brake composites were introduced as through coaches (to the North).  By my period (1912) 2nd class had gone so no active tri-comps though no doubt some compartments were still labelled 2nd class.

However, brake composites are largely ignored by the trade and one has to look hard to find any kits, so I will be following this thread with interest.

I do have some in my stash but have yet to build any.  I am however becoming more familiar with the joys of the Dean 6'4" and 8'6" bogies and their scroll irons.  Here to whet the appetite are some Dean carriages at the end of their journey deep into LNWR territory at Liverpool Lime Street.

That looks more LNWR than LNER but it’s not a Prince tender; more like a Whale than a Bowen Cooke…

Thanks all for your help. I have the pic of 3000 but none other. Time to get numbering…

I have a number of Slater's pre-lettered North's Navigation wagons to build and wondered if someone with the appropriate volumes of Turton could kindly look up and confirm the running number ranges for me.  According to the index, the volumes and pages are KT6/115 KT7/157* KT12/3 none of which I have.

Cheers

Peter

On 20/05/2023 at 01:20, garethashenden said:

I'm not familiar with this kit, and as you've removed the compensation beams from the etch I can't be sure of their design. But, if they are designed to take top hat bushes, then you don't also want hornblocks. If the beams hold the axle in a bushing, it will move through an arc. Hornblocks only move vertically. Either system will work fine, but both systems together will not work. If the beams just rest on top of the axles, then hornblocks are fine. But from the outline left in the fret I suspect not. 

Thanks Gareth and sorry for the late reply!  Although etched compensation beams appear to be designed to take tophat bushes, I've never seem them used that way.  Some may have a different experience though and it would be interesting to here how they have been used. 

To reassure you, what I do is to remove the lower half and allow the beam to rest on the axle bushes.  The also allows the wheel sets to be removable.  Here is the C Class chassis in that fashion.  I have bushed the central beam in an attempt to get a consistent ride height.

The motor/gearbox assembly here has been leaned out of the way for the photo.  There is also a tube and washer arrangement on the 3rd axle that is designed to stop the beam slipping off the axle bush; the gearbox does the same job on the driven axle.

I think this build has stalled at the point of dummy motion...

2 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

I built mine with a fixed driven rear axle, sprung the flangeless wheel (third) axle and used a single central beam on the front two axles. using LRM hornblocks.  It works well on London Road but the minimum radius is about 4' 6". Unfortunately I can't remember how much side play I built in and the loco is currently packed away.

Thanks Jol.  The C class has moved on in that it is now up on its wheels and the superstructure is underway.  However it has gone onto the back burner whilst I get my Coal Tanks around my 3 foot curves!  Yesterday I managed to get 2 of the three running but one with a K's body (all on LRM chassis) will only run backwards as seen in the video I posted on my layout thread.  I don't think it's a sideplay issue because I resolved that...

LNWR DX Goods nearing completion.  Finally got the blower valve fitted to the left hand side.  A bit more to do including the backhead and a lot of cleaning up...

Got an LNWR train running (WIP) to test haulage.  This length of train now only possible with the roundy layout:

1 hour ago, Methuselah said:

What make are these please Peter...?

Hi Stephen

The Morris & Holloway wagon is a Slaters pre-lettered kit that I applied matt varnish to before assembly, mainly to protect the lettering.

The BLAKE wagons I think were Cambrian kits with raised ends.  According to "The modeller's sketchbook of Private Owner Wagons" Book 1, Blake wagons were 5 plank, red (not oxide) with black corner plates.  I think the varnish has warmed the red up a bit but I quite like it.  The decals I think were Modelmaster which I bought at a show from the guy who used to have Parkside Dundas.  I've found them here of the web but there could be other sources:  https://www.hamodels.net/modelmaster-private-owner-4mm-decals-blake-hereford.html

All are on Brassmasters Private Owner wagon underframes.  For anything that's going to spend most of its life static in the yard I think I can justify these underframes for their detail.

I think RMWeb has lost the pics of these wagons so for posterity here's the shot again from the other angle:

Couplings missing!

On 21/02/2024 at 19:24, Compound2632 said:

 

Interesting. If the South Wales Coal Co. was taken over by Blake & Sons by 1918, it seems extraordinarily unlikely that their wagons would not have been repainted in Blake's livery by 1932. So the reported information must be wrong somewhere!

I would have given the same answer that they were South Wales Coal Co. wagons though @drduncan got there first!

The photo is hard to date but the chimneys have been replaced and there is now a small chimney pipe were previously the Gents was.  This was converted to a lamp room and the Gents moved next to the bridge.  I don't have a date for this change but if I went through sufficient old O/s maps I could probably spot it.  I think it might have been in LMS days.

Turton is interesting in that it states the wagons were repainted by Blake but has an advert dated 1922 which still uses the trading name and gives Depots at places including Woofferton.  With my marketing head on, I would have thought that brand would have been valuable and would have been retained.

On the photo in Turton Vol 10 Page 124, the Dean Goods has a belpaire, the dome painted over and, most notably, the smokebox has visible rivets.  Again I don't know when this change to riveting happened but I'm sure it's post Edwardian possibly 1920's.  So although the date of 1932 might be out it is probably after 1918 and into the 1920's.

I also have acquired a RTR Dapol model of a South Wales Coal Co. liveried wagon .  This is longer than my other wagons and is probably to the 1923 spec so of no use to me.  Would Dapol produce a wagon that was obsolete after 1918?  Maybe Turton is wrong.

Here's my take on the scene.

I realise that I have not posted an updated image of the layout so here it is, or as much as I could squeeze in one take.  All track is laid and working including the cassettes in the fiddleyard.  A LNWR train is waiting in the fiddleyard having tested the Coal Tanks' pulling power.

I've been weaving that embankment out of used cereal packets for ages.  Hope to finish it soon.

Stored below the layout can be seen the old end-to-end fiddleyards.