David Eveleigh

... Thank you for the information about the builder’s plates on the Johnson 0-6-0 locomotives. I did not know that. The kit that I designed is correct for the M&GN locomotive I wanted to build. (Excuse my clumsy attempt at editing the quote - I don't really use RmWeb much.) I have since decided to build the loco in its Midland version as well. Anyway, it is a very quick job to score the folds and remove the splasher sides, then swap them over. (Lots of kits have the splasher sides separate anyway rather than as a fold up.) I was perplexed by what Jerry wrote as being the main faults with the kit:- There are four items in question which I can denote A, B, C and D: A Kirtley locomotive 7.5mm frame spacing B Kirtley tender 7.5 mm frame spacing but with jig spacers needing to be filed 0.5 mm narrower C Johnson locomotive 7.5 mm frame spacing D Johnson tender 8 mm frame spacing. You can see that A, B and C are identical. (In fact this is my standard frame spacing which I have used for all my locomotive kits.) According to Jerry, A is OK; B, C and D are all at fault. How can that be? If he says A is correct, then B and C are as well. Here is my set of frames for 'C', the M class 0-6-0, with the fold up self jigging chassis built exactly as I designed them to be built. I The Association standard regarding frame spacing is as follows (quoted from the 2mm Assoc website) :- As you can see, the maximum frame spacing works out at 6.4 + (2 x 0.7) = 7.8 mm. Compare this with my set of frames for the new M class 0-6-0 assembled exactly as I designed them to be with the fold down spacers. You can see that the spacing actually comes out at 7.6 mm according to the vernier scale. Please Jerry, explain exactly what it is you are telling everyone is wrong with my kits as regards frame spacing.

I was alerted a little while ago to this thread where Jerry had said there were certain issues with the Midland Rly. 0-6-0 loco kits I had sold him. I had built the test etches several years ago and found no problems. Now that Jerry has come forward with details of what he says is wrong, perhaps I can attempt to answer the apparent issues. Instructions In his article in MRJ about the Kirtley 700 class Midland Rly. 0-6-0 Jerry stated that the instructions were ‘minimalist’. It is a matter of taste as to how comprehensive instructions should be with a kit. I personally do not like it when they consist of several pages of close written text because that gives the impression that building the kit is a big job and that can be off-putting, but if you want to include everything that a beginner will need then there will be a lot to wade through. I would not recommend someone start with the 700 class loco unless they have a certain amount of experience. The 2mm page of my website is still under development (I have had other priorities, I am afraid.), but anyone can PM me and I will be happy to send them a copy of the instructions for any kit. You can see in the 4mm section on my website there are print-out instructions (in the same style) and there are also illustrated build sequences giving a comprehensive picture of my methods and what is needed to build my kits. See http://eveleighcreations.com/ger-compartment-coaches/ When I send someone a kit I also say ‘let me know if you have any problems’ and have, a few times, engaged in useful discussions with people. In the light of those I modify the instructions where necessary. Adam Barstow, in a recent issue of the 2mm Magazine where he reviewed the building of my L&Y birdcage goods brake van said, and I quote, ‘Many thanks to David Eveleigh for his help and encouragement while building these kits.’ Frame spacers I made a mistake with the tender chassis to the Kirtley kit. I had decided, with the two Johnson tenders (2950 gall. and 3250 gall.) and the Kirtley tender, to space the frames half a millimetre further apart as I felt the normal spacing left too much slack behind the wheels. I adjusted the spacers wider by half a millimetre on all the kits and the spacing of the frames by the same amount, but unfortunately forgot to include the Kirtley frames in this adjustment. You can see the dimensions in the pictures of the etch I have included. Kirtley tender spacer and inside frame measurement showing 0.5 mm error. (Frame spacer is supposed to fit within 2 * 0.125 mm deep half etched grooves.) I found this error when I built the test etches several years ago. It was irritating, but all I had to do was to file one edge of the rectangular spacer down by 0.5 mm and then it fitted in place perfectly, taking a total of about 30 seconds. To say that this was an ‘issue’ is an exaggeration. Filing the edge of a rectangle back a little until it fits is a skill that anyone building a locomotive in 2mm scale might be expected to be able to cope with. I must admit I had forgotten it was even a problem when I came to write the instructions, but added a comment on this when I was reminded. I am intrigued by Jerry’s claim that the error was continued with the M class Johnson loco kit – it was not. You can see that the loco frames are designed to fold to a dimension of 7mm inside, and with a thickness of 0.25 mm that brings the outside frame measurement to 7.5 mm. The tender frames are set to 7.5 and 8 mm respectively. (This is fairly close to the back of the wheel bosses, but I prefer there to be little play behind the valances and with the dimension over flanges compared with the gauge of the track taken into account the tender is designed to cope with a track radius of as little as 400 mm.) The frame spacers are of width 7.25 mm for the loco and 7.75 mm for the tender because they fit into half etched grooves (2 x 0.125 mm) in the frames. Johnson tender frame spacer and inside frame measurement showing there is no error in these. M class loco inside frame measurement and spacer width showing there is no error with these. Tender and loco frames with spacers clipped in place and ready for soldering - no need for any adjustments. Oversized parts Bob Jones alerted me to the fact, years ago, that when you design a part which is half etched, the edge may receed a little due to over-etching, so it is as well to allow a little extra. Rob Parry at Photo Etch Consultants confirmed this, saying that producing sheets of etch is not as exact a science as you would like. Therefore, with the half etched cab roofs I allow a little extra all around. So, yes, I allow the kit builder to dress the edges back a little as they are building the kit. This is normal practice and the sort of thing that any reasonably experienced builder should expect. It is not a mistake with the etch. Tender bearings It is my practice to design these as three layers of etch and have people drill them out to size after laminating, to give a smooth edged hole. The design of the kits allows people to open out the holes and fit Association phosphor bronze bearings if they prefer, but I am a little mean and I prefer not to have to do this with tender chassis. The reason is that the tender axles are not subject to lateral loads from the drive and coupling rods, and the wear that this causes. Builders plates Apparently these were put in different positions on different locos of the same prototype. Here is part of the photo I worked from with the builder’s plate on the front splasher. It is from Plate 1 on page 117 of ‘The Midland and Great Northern Joint Railway and its Locomotives’ by Bob Essery. In the text he states that identical locomotives were supplied by the same makers to the Midland Railway. Obviously different makers were likely to afix plates of different designs to each other, maybe to different splashers and different to those fitted to locomotives built at Derby. The locomotive I designed the kit for was from a batch by Nielson & Reid & Co. Others were built by Kitson. Valance/bufferbeam tabs and slots Whether these fit or not can sometimes depend on how much solder you have applied when tinning parts. It looks fine on the screen, but when you assemble the kit you find you need to make adjustments (or file the tab off and locate by eye). This is not an ‘issue’ – merely a part of building things sometimes in this scale. I have an email from Jerry saying that he would show me the script to his article in MRJ before publication. It is a shame he didn’t do that, because I could have explained to him about some of these design decisions so he wasn’t so much in the dark when he wrote his article and his assessment of my kits.

Hello Rob, I think you would have as good a chance of making a neat accurate model as with any etched kit. If you look at my website you will see illustrated instruction sequences for the Great Eastern Rly. compartment coaches showing exactly how I put mine together, and downloadable printout parts lists and instructions for each kit. Whilst building the test etches for the tram coaches I took copious photos and will be making similar provision for them in the next few weeks before the production kits come in. I would say build the four wheeled tram first - that should be very easy. Obviously I am fairly experienced, but I started assembling the four wheeled body at about midnight a couple of weeks ago after I had finished watching the tv. I had it all together with the roof on and neat and tidy by 1:30am. (Yes, I keep strange hours sometimes.) An hour or two the following morning had the under-frame assembled including brakes, veranda ironwork in place, wheels in and trundling up and down on a length of track. The bogie tram is a little more involved because I modeled the characteristic bending down at the ends and up in the middle which is quite noticeable in the prototype photographs, even from very early on in their lives. (This was because of the weight of the self contained buffers and the fact that the verandas caused the bogies to be placed rather closer to the centre than was optimal.) I still don't think it is difficult to build. I am particularly proud of the etch design of the footsteps. These are done as a one part assembly folding as a saddle shaped part to fit over the ends of the floor - six folds on either side and a touch with some flux and a well charged soldering iron and the solder fizzes around making everything secure. As with everything, having good jigs and fixtures to hold things securely at the correct angle as you work on them is key - see the website. Best wishes, David

Hello, I am the aforementioned Eveleigh, but 'David' - always David. (My 'id' is very important to me). Yes, I have indeed done the tram coaches as etched kits. I built the test etches a few weeks ago and decided there were some improvements I could make to enable people to put them together more easily. The drawings were duly adjusted and have gone off to the etchers. The built up coaches look very nice - much like the 2mm scale ones in the pictures on my website currently. Those ones are painted so the pictures will remain for a while. I must update the page content tomorrow. Please feel free to order these now - include £6 postage - I should be getting them back in a few weeks. David

How widespread was the crimson livery? All the way from the roof to the solebars - not the windows. ;-) I have been assembling the Wisbech test etches. They look nice, but I am going to make the bogies easier to assemble - needs another etch. I have also been making my 2mm scale No.1 Class 'Little Sharpie' in preparation for designing the 4mm scale etches. The tender is borrowed from one of the Thetford and Watton 0-4-2s and not the correct pattern but gives an idea.

S scale coaches I have been asked to consider making some of my etched coach kits available in S scale (1/64). I have put together some thoughts here. As was the case with the 4mm kits which are now available, I need sufficient firm commitment to proceed. If interested, please let me know.

I now have the drawing for the E4. (Thank you.) In conjunction with the photographs I now have I am sufficiently informed about the prototypes to be able to start on the kits - when I get time (which will be some time over the winter). I have arranged with a friend to borrow a 4mm scale loco kit so I can measure it for spacer dimensions and how to arrange for bearings, etc. and I will send off an order to Gibsons for all the parts which seem to be applicable so I can design around what is available.

By the way - I have already designed the 2mm scale kit for the Little Sharpie, so I have all the info I needed for that, but pictures of them are always welcome.

Greetings Earthlings, Thank you for all the info. Excellent. I am told there is a good article about E4s by Alan Sibley in Model Railways magazine about 1984. If anyone has a copy of this would it be possible to scan it for me and send it to me - I think this could be a pretty useful piece of information. I have been chatting to the etchers today. They have prepared the drawing for the Ffestiniog Small England engine etches I sent them in the summer and I am going to have some of those back in a month or less (hopefully, now they've done the difficult bit which is translating my drawing into masks or 'photo tools'. Of more interest to lots of you is that there is going to be a big pile of four wheeled coach chassis with them. If you've paid already (thank you) I will be sending them straight out. If you haven't paid yet, I shall send you my bank details so hopefully we can do an electronic transfer. Late 'Happy Solstice' greetings - and if you have the article about the E4s ...

That is potentially useful - thank you. I have another person who is trying to obtain some drawings for me to work to and they have not been replying to his attempts to communicate with them since March. The NRM dislikes people using its drawings 'for commercial purposes', though I don't know if you would count my meager earnings as 'commercial'. I laughed at your comment the other day where I guess you were aiming to sound 'realistic' and avoid me building up my hopes too much - I don't think I've sold as many as 30 of any of my kits except perhaps a very few - certainly not the six wheeled coaches which lots of people said they wanted.

Right - the person above has contacted me again by email so I know who I am talking to - excellent! If anyone can point me towards pictures, particularly of the E4s in the Stainmore area - don't have any books about Ooop there - or can share scans with me surreptitiously by email I would be grateful.

OK - I'll copy this to my file on these engines. I would probably end up calculating measurements from photos anyway as they are often clearer than the sort of drawings which have been published in the magazines in the past. Can you remind me of your name please and I can refer back to our correspondence by email? I am not anywhere near doing the E4 yet as I don't have nearly sufficient interest at this stage, but if I do go ahead I will use whatever information people are able to share with me. Best wishes, David

If you have better drawings, would you share them with me please, because the Lyn Brookes drawing is the one that is included with the Gardner CD and that is all I have. If you wouldn't mind sending me an email - better than clogging up the works here. Thanks, David

Hello, I have just looked into this thread. I have designed a kit for the Johnson No.1 class in 2mm for building to 2FS standards. (It is designed for split frame construction using 2mm Assoc. wheels, bearings, muffs, etc.) I also do the 417 class - the earlier and smaller of the Johnson 0-6-0s. These both have the four wheeled tender with the double slots in the valance. In addition, I do the Thetford and Watton Rly. 0-4-2 (They had two of them and they later ran on the Saffron Walden branch - or you could model one of the pair that the the Swedish state railways bought, one of which is preserved). and this has the four wheeled tender with the single slot. Recently designed is the E10 class 0-4-4T and from a long time ago there is the K9 0-4-2T. I have not got around to test building these yet, but they are in the pipeline. I am going to start the No.1 class tomorrow as a bank holiday project and because it looks as if I am soon going to be redesigning it as a 4mm scale kit. Once I have tested to make sure the etches go together I will advertise these kits. Each of these kits comes with a selection of appropriate number plates - usually of locomotives with prime numbers if possible ( I like my locos to have prime numbers.), but also those of locos which got photographed. Best wishes, David Eveleigh

Thank you, James. We are half way there with the Little Sharpie.

I have had a couple of people express interest privately with firm orders for locomotives - I.e. they will put money up when I am ready to go ahead. On that basis there is the possibility that I will be designing and having produced etched kits for : Johnson No.1 class 'Little Sharpie' 2-4-0 (both original (Johnson cab, wing plates to the smokebox front, etc.) and rebuilt (new cab, plain smokebox, etc.) - these locos lasted in service from the 1870s to the early 1900s, the last one being withdrawn in 1913. 'Intermediate' class T26 (LNER E4) 2-4-0 which lasted into the 1950s, including some of them working over the Stainmore line (if there is interest the larger cab could be offered as an added option) with one being preserved. I would be asking £90 for the loco etches and £50 for the tender in each case. Boiler fittings, etc. would be made available separately via Shapeways. I would need firm orders for at least eight kits (I.e. six more than the two I already have) of each type for either to take place. The drawing work will take about one month where I would draw all the parts and compose them on the sheets. As a part of the checking process I virtually fold up all the parts on the drawing, producing three elevations (two elevations and a plan) and then assemble all the parts to produce elevations for the complete kit. This makes sure all the parts fit together. I would ask people to pay 50% of the price before doing this work (as it is not worth proceeding without firm orders). The two locomotives would each require three sheets of etch, one each for the loco bodies, the loco chassis and the tender. Each loco and tender kit would cost me around £600 to bring it to production and I would be committing to that at the time I ask the etchers to process the drawings. Therefore I would ask for the other 50% at that stage. The etchers take around two months and if everything is satisfactory when I build the test etch they would start to be available from that stage - if I need to make adjustments it will take another couple of months - quite an involved process. I would not be accepting money unless and until I have the required number of people prepared to proceed, but the projects are dependent on this support if they are to be done.

Just supposing - someone were to think of doing some locomotive etch kits in 4 mm scale - and he would obviously want to make sure the ones he chose to do would be popular - what suggestions would you have for what prototypes you think they should be? I am thinking No.1 Class 'Little Sharpie' 2-4-0 perhaps to kick off with.

I have just been looking back through this discussion and 'Compound2632' asked about the extra ventilators over the side lights. I think these were provided for better than third class compartments as one of the perks of higher class travel. I have included holes in the panels which need a vent over them for reasons which are explained in the illustrated build sequences.

Ok - thanks for this. I find this use of pseudonyms quite amusing - very Victorian. It is nice to be able to put a real name to a conversation.

Thank you, Tony, for your comments. I don't suppose there is a chance, following our discussion on the phone, of you building these as sprung vehicles is there? My idea was to file off the tabs as for the rocking 'W' irons at both ends and then somehow arranging sprung supports for both 'W' irons. To 'Daddyman' - that is a nice picture and one I haven't seen before. There are two I used for information which are in the Wild Swan 'Wisbech and Upwell Tramway' by Hawkins and Reeve (p16 - showing four and six wheeled trams) and The Wisbech & Upwell Tramway Centenary Album by Ingram (p53). The new view is nice because it shows both bogie tram coaches together. It also shows off the relief on the external roof ribs. I arranged to have curved ribs to solder on next to half (un)etched strips across the roof to give the angle iron effect. Good news from James about the transfers - one thing I don't need to worry about. In a spirit of reciprocity (!) would you consider including 2mm scale versions of these in your request, please? I have an idea Bucoops is know to me - but don't wish to blow your cover here. I'm glad the instructions make sense - thank you. I need to add the downloadable instructions for the chassis now which do exist, but I forgot to put them on when I was composing the page. Best wishes, David

And thank you, Tony - sorry.

Good evening, I feel I should introduce myself - I'm David Eveleigh. I tend to avoid social media as I had some nasty experiences a number of years ago, but have been very happy at my 'representation' by a number of people here - thank you James; thank you Jon. It is time however to 'meet the group'. I have been working very hard in recent months at the 4 mm coaches, getting the kits built, designing chassis for the Four Wheelers, photographing everything and in the last week I have finally got around to learning the new software necessary and updating my website, www.eveleighcreations.com. If you go on there now you will find pages for my etched kits including one for the GER compartment stock (four and six wheeled). Inside there I have put links to some illustrated build sequences, which explain how to put the things together (including the 'clever' design elements) and instructions for each coach, together with a photo of what you get. The current state of play with stock is: I have everything in certain quantities. The chassis for the four wheeled coaches (which build very, very nicely and quickly) will be arriving in mid to late September (with the first production etches for a kit for the Small England Engines of the Ffestiniog Railway in about 1900 condition). I have ordered four wheeled chassis in similar quantities to the total number of sales of the bodies so far (and I will be contacting you by email if you have bought the four wheeled coach bodies in the past). I can order extra to be added to the package and it will save me postage if this can be done sooner rather than when I need to put in a separate order. You will notice from the website that I have gone ahead with the Wisbech tram coaches. I did both the four wheeled and the bogie trams, together with brake van No.16. As with my 2mm models I did years ago (and whose photos populate the 4mm page at the moment) I was pleased to incorporate the very obvious 'sag' of the bogie coaches, which apparently happened almost immediately they started running. Enough for now - please have a look at the website - feel free to ask any questions (and point out any glitches with the 'site). Best wishes, David