Roy L S

Colin Heard does have an e-mail address: - colin.h@manx.net I was told he may not necessarily get back to you that quickly via e-mail, but that said I experienced no problem when I contacted him this way. However you will still need to either call him or fax him with any order. Regards Roy

Sorry, it would have paid me to read the post more carefully :-( Roy

A Cauliflower, eh? Fantastic ... we've never had an LNWR 0-6-0 before, and it's much needed. The LMS boys will love it ... but more to teh point, us pre-groupers will love it! We have had one, Colin Heard has already done the LNWR G2 "super D". Cheers Roy

Not unusual, Colin Heard often shuts up shop for a few weeks at a time. I do not know if he operates completely on his own, I had always assumed he does. I believe a fair few elements of the work gets subbed out though. I can olny endorse what others say, good robust reliable locos which run well and can be detailed for those who would wish to. I would personally recommend them. Thanks to him we have all sorts of locos in N RTR that the 00 boys do not have, mostly pre-Grouping. Roy

Hi Tim Yes, generally one loco each year. I would be surprised if anyone (Apart from Colin Heard) knows yet what it will be, but I do concur that the two criteria you mention are probably a given. One I would love to see would be a D16/3 even if there did have to be compromises with the tender to fit the mechanism. Otherwise how about something with a Scottish flavour - a "Glen" would fit the criteria perfectly. Probably both a mile out... Regards Roy

Hi Grahame Ok, you do make a fair point there, the Brit is not the most expensive RTR British steam loco to date, and others are "only" a matter of £15 or so less RRP wise. To me the Peco Collett was way over-priced for the British N Market even with a chip on board, nice loco though it is (Although there are some who question the dimensions of the tender). It's the price you pay for UK manufacture I guess. I used the figure of £120 simply because that is the RRP of the Brit and I do not necessarily think that it is dear for a loco, but my expectaton for that money would be greater than the Brit delivers as an overall package compared to it's peers (notwithstanding it's undoubted good features). It just does not have the finesse as a product I would expect whereas other less expensive models do. To put it another way, I can buy a Farish "Black Five" for £104.95 RRP or about £84 discounted. As a fair comparison the best price I have seen a Brit at is £109.95. As an overall package the Black Five is an equally good product, better in some aspects possibly not as good in others and the Brit just does not to me justify the price differental. The actual price is irrelevant as we move forward, you rightly point out that we will soon be paying more for either, it is the differential that is to me not justified. Regards Roy

Hi Grahame £120 may not be a lot to you, but I suspect it would make a serious dent in a lot of modelling budgets, and many would I think have high expectations for that kind of money! Plenty like you seem to be very pleased with the Brit and the chassis from all accounts is well thought out and performs very well indeed. Due credit to Dapol for that, but a new benchmark? No, not for me, and the picture posted more eloquently says why than any words I can use when you look below the Running Plate. For example (and ignoring issues already discussed in this thread) bits of bent wire for slide-bars? Granted it works but is not really the most sophiticated engineering solution. Even ignoring Farish models for me the finesse of the Ixion Manor surpasses it! Regards Roy

Hi Martin Dapol have been great innovators with such things as close-coupling (Even on some 4 wheel wagons!) and underfloor mechanisms, coach lighting etc, all previously unheard of in British N. Their constant innovation has (I think) forced Bachmann to look over their shoulder and lift their game as a consequence with the results we are seeing now (Thinks Class 24, 108, Scot, 4MT Tender etc, all awesome models). Yes, some of the earlier Dapol steam models (45xx, M7 and Ivatt) have been something of a disappointment to me personally, but the good thing about Dapol is that they do seem to learn and get it better with each release they make and my more recent B17 is a model I am really very happy with. Most it seems are more than happy with their Dapol "Brits" especially in terms of the way the chassis performs, and the picture of Alan's after he has weilded the paintbrush shows how good it could (and arguably should) have looked from the factory, whereas frankly it looks unfinished. Yes,sorting it out is possible but on a loco costing £120 (in fact any RTR loco irrespective of price)I do not feel one should have to. I do not consider this observation to be "manufacturer bashing" it is an honest objective statement, and knowing Dapol they will respond positively with future releases, so I will sit tight and wait for 70013 to be released Cheers Roy

Hi Alan Great work! What you have done really does make the Brit look so much better, all basic cosmetic stuff but what a difference it makes! It really does beg the question - how much more effort would it have taken in the factory to do something similar and deliver a model to this standard making it look as good at it reputedly performs? Cheers Roy

Hi Alan Thanks for sharing that with us. Was that 40 coaches? I lost count. Very impressive indeed. It does not alter my thoughts regarding the model overall though. There are too many cosmetic issues (Crosshead screws & black while motion is unblackened making them stand out even more, too thick driving wheel rims, drivers unblackenened or if they are blackened not matching other wheels, motion rather chunky and shiny). It is pretty clear that a good deal of thought had gone into the design, it just feels as if in a rush to get it into the shops too many compromises in terms of final finishing have been accepted. No, not acceptable for a £120 loco to me. Nonetheless they appear popular enough and it is perhaps significant that as yet I have not heard mention of a single mechanical failure anywhere. Final conclusion, good yes, a new pinnacle no, not overall but it could have been. I am going to hold tight for a future batch and see if some of these cosmetic issues are improved upon I think. Roy

There are now some pics of what I assume are the production models on the Rails of Sheffield Website. No question it is a very nice model, but the matters raised in earlier postings do not appear to have been addressed (on this batch anyway). Like the B1 the motion remains shiny with the screws blackened. Even ignoring my thoughts on the use of crosshead screws they would have been much easier to live with if either chromed to match the rods or the motion had been blackened. Driving wheels still have thick treads and do not appear properly blackened? (Although maybe a trick of the camera and hopefully they look better "in the flesh"?). Cab roof/tender height mismatch still there. Reports on performance and haulage have been universally positive, plenty will not care a jot about the issues I mention and I am sure it will do very nicely. But for me not quite the benchmark yet. However looking at all of my newer locos the one I think stands out for me even more than the newer Black Five is the Farish Scot - the way it looks and runs it is just "right" somehow. Roy

Seconded Alan I'd be very interested to see how the production Brits compare to those given to the mags etc a couple of months back (which we were subsequently told were not the fully finished article). Roy

Hi Alan I think from what was said on the Dapol stand at TINGS they should be with us anytime now. Your summary probably captures my thoughts too pretty much, forgetting all the spin and hype, hopefully another significant step forward, the issue of what is "best" and what some do or do not consider acceptable compromises will always be very subjective anyway (As we can see from this thread!). I remain hopeful of a nice surprise when production batches do arrive and if that transpires and feeback on quality of production models is good I may well reconsider my purchasing decision and get one after all. Roy

Well well, where or when that was this posted? This seems to be becoming a one-man crusade! I sincerely hope it is unnecessary and the model ends up speaking for itself when we see the final finished product delivered, hopefully having dealt with at least some of the "niggles" identified on the review samples. On the subject of poor Farish performance, all I can say is none of mine run poorly, in fact they run very nicely indeed and that is good enough for me. Whether the Brit will prove to run better we have yet to see as in terms of any direct comparisons none have been made yet as far as I know. I suspect it will be a matter of opinion to some extent anyway, depending on what is important to different modellers, for example pulling power v's quietness of mechanism, simplicity of maintenance and reliability, indeed we do not even yet know yet how good Dapol's QC has been (will be?) on the production samples, and I say that not to be inflamatory, it is simply a fact as we sit here now. Roy

Grahame, actually a hex-nut is a lot closer (in a generic sense) to the look of a crankpin that a crosshead screw and is frequently used by manufacturers in different scales, albeit by necessity, especially in N they can be considerably larger than would be the case in reality. You say you "understand" it does not represent a prototype crankpin, by which I take it you mean you have not checked for yourself? I have already said that the manufacturer of the model is irrelvant to me, it appears that you prefer to be selective as to which parts of postings you respond to. The original question was to ask if the Dapol Brit was a new pinnacle in British N steam. The opinion of Model Rail, myself and a good few others is that there are too many small niggles for it to claim that mantle, albeit the review models may not (hopefully) represent what is now in transit. I admit after all the hype I am disappointed. As a young child my first "big" steam loco was a Triang Hornby 00 Gauge Britannia (With synchrosmoke and that horrible "chuff chuff" sound). It remains one of my favourite steam locos. I am not anti-Dapol, I have already acknowledged that there appears to be a good deal of innovation in the Brit's chassis. I take exception to your repeated insinuations that this is the case. I am not the only one making the observations about crankpins, wheel tread thickesses, and the cab-tender height mismatch. For the record I have a good number of ther products, 12 locos including a B17, two 9Fs two Ivatt Tanks plus 16 Gresley coaches 6 Colletts and numerous other items of rolling stock. I could ask you why you feel the need to be what appears overly defensive? I am assuming that like me your only connection with Dapol is as a buyer of their products??? I notice you have on this thread now turned your attention to berating the yet to be released Farish B1. Your call, I'm not going to rise to that one. I saw it a TINGS and was suficiently impressed to order two of them. If it is the same as the Black Five it will have hexes on front and rear axles and a small slotted screw on the centre one holding the valve-gear and other motion on. I acknowledge I'd prefer to see a different solution there too..If you dont like it you dont have to buy it. This has taken up too much of my time, I am happy to leave it there, although I am sure you will insist on having the last word. Roy

Because Grahame it detracts totally from a model which has a £120 price-tag and bears absolutely NO resemblance generically or otherwise to ANY type of crankpin on ANY prototype loco I can find. Given that, in my opinion it is an unimaginitive cheap and nasty solution to having to remove the connecting rods on a loco to replace traction tyres. I stress it is my opinion, but nonetheless equally valid to yours. Does that answer your question adequately? Roy

It is probably pretty academic because I doubt it will happen but had hex bolts replaced the crosshead screws my suggestion was that Dapol include a little box-spanner with the loco rather than people having to source one themselves. That said, I have a set somewhere rather similar to jewellers screwdrivers picked up from a "Pound Store" some while back. It may be that with blackened valve-gear on the production models these screws will be less obtrusive but I would still argue that on a £120 product a better solution to the issue of removing rods to replace traction tyres might easily have been found. No question at all it is streets and streets ahead of the old Minitrix "Brit" but as that had it's origins in the early 1970's and was based around a german loco's chassis I would be really concerned if it hadn't been the case! Regards Roy

Grahame I am glad you chose to "snip" that particular sentence. If you read it again you will notice that I said cheap LOOKING. I have no idea (and no particular wish to find out) the unit cost as versus the hex bolt and impact if any on production costs. It was, as you acknowledge a subjective observation, it is the impact of the screws on the overall look of the product that grates with me (and I note others). Go look at prototype steam locos and tell me how many you can find with a monsterous Phillips type screw holding the connecting rods on I also said I had looked at lots of pictures of prototypes and acknowledged that the different types of crankpins used would be a nightmare for model designers and that overall I felt the Hex bolt is the best GENERIC solution. I was not "shooting from the hip" I had done some research to check. The vagaries of the Riddles Standards is a case in point and the ideal solution would be to manufacture exactly to the spec of each prototype but that is not going to happen I suspect. Who would have thought there would be different crankpins on front and rear wheelsets of the same loco for example? I do not think I am being excessively or unnecessarily negative about Dapol, I am fully entitled to my opinion and I would have made the same observations whoever had produced the model, be it Farish, Fleischmann, Dapol or whoever, the manufacturer is irrelevant. Steam Loco wise, yes, I will not deny that at present my preference is Farish, I think they are better engineered, run better and are and better finished. Just in the same way I prefer Volkswagen cars to say Ford or Citroen. I am allowed to express this opinion and I express it as a consumer only (that is to say I have no other connection). Regards Roy

Hi Kris That would have the advantage of not having to remanufacture any of the existing loco components but how would it be held securely in position with what can be quite rapidly moving parts I wonder? I suspect it is far too late to do anything now about the initial production batches which are presumably still in a container on the "high seas" somewhere, but to be fair to Dapol they are not adverse to introducing improvements on future batches of models as they proved with the 9Fs so who knows. What appears universally recognised is that in spite of these "niggles" the Brit has a well designed mechanism and runs and pulls well. I am content to wait and see how the production batches compare to the test samples given to the likes of "Model Rail" hopefully not long now. Regards Roy

I thought I'd spend some time in the railway room doing some comparisons. I have a single Large Logo Dapol 73 from the original production (Cast chassis). Haven't had it out of the box in ages so thought I'd have a play just in the interests of science:-)It runs smoothly enough but is not exactly quiet, especially compared to Farish 24 (just for example)and a lot noisier than the 4MT Mogul I had running at the same time in the opposite direction. I also tried my GBRF 66 - when taken out of the box and put on the track it barely moved, it takes ages for the mechaninsm to free up at all with this one - I think this was a common issue at the time. Cracking looking loco though. Then I ran sme steamers - a pair of my new "Black Fives" in "Double Harness" on a long freight - well matched mechanisms, very smooth indeed - looked fabulous. I have a fair number of both and have no particular axe to grind, I model transition and like green diesels almost as much as steam locos. The latest Farish diesels run smoothly and quietly and have great haulage capacity (I have no Dapol Hymek to compare but am sure the story would be the same) are loaded with features and beautifully made and detailed. Steam - Ixion Manor and Dapol B17, both smooth but slightly noisy, both have amazing slow running capability and will pull a decent load. The Manor has finer detail than the B17 but arguably benefitted from a redesign and is more modern tooling. I am ignoring the 9Fs Ivatts, M7's etc as I feel even these have been left behind now. My Farish steam locos are smooth quiet runners, slow running maybe not quite as good as the above two - but they are exceptional. With my Jubs, Scots and Black Fives I made the concious decision to sacrifice haulage for pickup by swopping the rear tender wheelsets. In this form all can mangage 9 coaches no bother at all probably more. Detail and finish is exquisite. The 4MT for it's size is incredibly powerful - 12 coaches no bother at all. As for Dapol 9F etc I discounted the compariatively recent V2 as it falls down in too many areas by comparison. I'd love to see it retooled and tender-driven but I doubt it will happen. My conclusion from my little "play" is that for sure in every area quality has moved on immeasurably from where British N was 10 years ago. Both steam and diesel run beautifully smoothly and reliably. Arguably there may be, by nature of their complexity more QC issues with steam around their assembly leading to poor running with some - not my personal experience - maybe I'm just lucky? Roy

Hi Grahame I do agree that neither is perfect, but of the two I think the hex bolt method Farish use (also used on some 00 models made by both Hornby and Bachmann) is neater and less obtrusive than the cheap looking screws Dapol have employed on the Brit, and I have yet to find a pic of a real loco with provision for a crosshead screwdriver on their crankpins:-) I have just checked a few of my Dapol locos, and interestingly (Perhaps ironically) the B17 has hex bolts on front and read driving wheels while others employ a variety of other types of crank pin. It is then an interesting exercise to checkout prototype losos, so I have scoped a number of pics of different locos from various regions (With different designers). Here there is variety too, and in a generic sense the hex bolt still appears the best solution overall but it is not that straightforward. If we take the example of the Brit or indeed the majority of BR Standard locos, the arrangement tends to vary even between axles on the same loco. For example the Brit uses aome kind of hollow crankpin on the front axle and rear too UNLESS there is a speedo drive fitted to the rear LHS wheel when a stud is used to hold the crank. The centre axle is a stud too to acommodate the various elements of valve-gear that meet at that point. This appears to repeat on the majority of Riddles designs, and when you look at the shape of the hollow pin, you kind of get what Dapol were trying to achieve with the round topped screws I think (Albeit not very successfully). Now if we discount the hex bolt, the next best solution would appear to be a tiny allen (Torx?) type bolt, so that the shape of the rounded pin could be retained then with a representation of the hollow centre. Not sure how feasible that would be. To be honest though the thought running through my head as I checked out the various pics was that the designers are on a hiding to nothing - we are just so hard to please! Finally on the topic of the Brit I was reminded that the first air-freighted production samples were lost in the crash at Dubai and the ones reviewed may not represent the finished item. A very fair point indeed and given the loss of life that ensued there one has to get things into perspective - it is only a hobby albeit an enjoyable one after all. Regards Roy

It has occured to me that I have unwittingly contributed to diverting this thread somewhat away from the original topic - the Brit - apologies. As to the 3MT Grahame - yes, it cannot be denied there are a number of reports or assembly problems on some leading to poor pickup which materially affects performance - something to be fed back to Colin Allbright. Having taken the body off mine though, it is very pleasingly engineered and such problems are certainly not in the design itself (It is made to be dismantled - no glue joins etc to break). The general point on D&E running better than steam may also be true overall - there are far fewer technical challenges putting a drivetrain in a "box". That said the latest incarnations of steam from all manufacturers are now very good too and the performance "gap" is closer (Thinking latest Farish models, Dapol B17 and Ixion Manor). Regards Roy

Hi Grahame That is a shame, reviews have been overwhelmingly positive and I cannot praise the running of mine highly enough. I think you must have a "lemon" why not send it back and get a replacement? Cheers Roy

I have to agree with you entirely. But for Dapol entering the Marketplace I very much doubt we would have seen the advances that have taken place. I've got an Ixion Manor too - the plain BR black "Hook Norton Manor" it is another example of just how good things have got in British N these days - it is just superb.. Cheers Roy

Hi Mark In terms of innovations around the mechanism it cannot be denied that the loco breaks new ground in a number of ways for a British model and fair play to Dapol for that. However although the straight tender-drive is maybe less ground-breaking, in terms of overall finesse I think the latest Farish steam releases are in a different league entirely at the moment. And in that lovely 3MT Tank at last we have a larger tank loco mechanism where running qualities match the looks. Mine runs so quietly and smoothly all you can hear is the "singing" of wheels on rails(With due deference to the excellent running and haulage qualities of the Dapol Terrier in the small tank loco arena). It is great though that there are these two manufacturers in the market, each forcing the other to "raise the bar" and who is to say that the next Dapol release wont force me to eat my above words! Regards Roy