nickb4141

According to Tower Models site, the first of the Dapol Mk1’s are on the water, so shouldn’t be too much longer now!

I couldn’t agree more! I can’t quite believe how hostile some people have been!

Actually I did grasp that thanks! I appreciate the issues with the 321’s as I had pre-orders like others did. When Mike suggested we prove the demand, I can’t see any other way around this, unless you or anyone else has any suggestions how you would do this? It’s not my ‘personal theory’ I was trying to be proactive and offer a solution, rather than being hostile as some people seem to be on here.....

Class 68 maybe, as something modern to accompany the class 66?

Colours on the Chocolate & Cream one look a bit off - cream looks vet pale. Hopefully these are first samples and can be changed as have two of these on order!

I don’t think I’ve ever ‘demanded’ that Revolution offer the C&C livery. All I and others have pointed out is they may have ‘missed a trick’ in excluding it, backed up with facts to justify why we believe this to be the case. This has been done in a constructive way and at no point have I criticised their products, which I think are fantastic. I think it’s fair to say we’ve had a few hostile posts from other members which has felt something along the lines of ’Revolution know what they will sell and you have no experience as a manufacturer, so pipe down’ I’ve actually been a massive fan of EMU’s since I was a kid, so I’ve learnt a lot about them over the last 40 years or so and everything I’ve posted has been done with good intentions and to try and help the project succeed. It’s not as if we’ve been saying ‘’the cads look awful so I for one won’t be parting with my money with you!’ type of negative posts you often see on here! The reason for suggesting the 3 liveries all be offered was to get a true read on whether there was a market for them, as Mike had suggested we need to prove the demand. Other than doing that, I don’t see how we would be able to do this as polls where people say how many they would buy are probably not a true reflection of people actually parting with their cash! So, I’ve tried and I now accept defeat! I wish the project well and I’m sure I’ll probably buy one unit (and I can use the money I would have spent on a couple of C&C’s on other Revolution products )

The point I was making was C&M have a history of commissioning Scottish themed products. The fact that the 314’s don’t pass their door and 156’s do is of no relevance - if they or any of the other UK model shops think this is a commercial proposition, they will sell to whoever wants them. I don’t doubt Mike’s expertise in bringing excellent products to market, all that I and others have done is highlight the facts of how the C&C livery is much more relevant to the class 314, than it was to the 320, after he remarked how well the 320’s in Saltire livery had sold, which as the current livery is understandable.

I think there’s more than 2 or 3 of us! I don’t doubt Revolution’s competence, which is why my credit card has taken such a bashing from them over the last few years! All we have flagged to them are the facts of how the C&C livery is more relevant to the 314 than it was to the 320, that’s all! The fact that there are a few people saying the same thing on a n N gauge doesn’t mean that we are the only potential customers who might feel the same - not all potential customers are on RMWeb!

Hi Mike, I promise I’m not trying to be difficult! I just want the project to be a success as you do. Re; proving demand for the C&C, could it not be added to the orders to find the true potential of each livery? If not enough orders were received for one of the liveries, could this not be communicated by email, thereby giving customers the chance to swap to remaining liveries and get them over the MOQ threshold? Best Regards, Nick.

It’s not based on personal bias, purely that C&C was the most common livery and the most prolific one worn by two thirds of the class right up until withdrawal. Mike has quite rightly said the Saltire livery of the class 320 has been popular (and I agree with that because I have two of them on order!) The point is, current liveries are always popular and with this rationale, the C&C 314’s were the equivalent of the 320 Saltire livery, as just five 314’s received Saltire livery. In addition the inclusion of C&C would have been able to run with either of the current 2 options, so could have led to increased orders. Normally the Revolution guys are ‘bang on’ with their livery choices, but I think a few of us have been flagging this as a missed opportunity. Obviously I want the project to succeed and I’m just sharing this to maximise its chances of success. I know the 320/321 ordering system was a bit of a nightmare for Mike & Ben, but on the positive side it did show what liveries were viable for those classes. N gauge commissions naturally aren’t as popular as 00 ones, but Kernow currently have a class 92 exclusive, certainly no native of the South West, same with Gaugemaster’s GWR 153’s. My layout is Glasgow based, but I live in Kent and place internet orders with multiple retailers. If the model has commercial potential, it doesn’t matter who picks it up. As the C&C complements the other two liveries, I don’t believe it would impact their sales. KMS is a good suggestion of yours, or as you say, on a second run would be good

I think the Model Railway business has boomed in Covid, witness all the items out of stock in the last year, so I don’t think those retailers who would be in a position to commission exclusives are exactly ‘cash-strapped’ at the moment and it hasn’t stopped exclusives being commissioned for the class 313. Yes, the 314 is probably not going to be as popular as the 313’s, but the point is C&C livery is in effect the ‘BR Blue’ of the class 314’s lifespan, so it is a core livery with an extremely long (especially in days of Privitisation) lifespan, so it is more commercial proposition than maybe some of the fringe liveries being offered for the 313 (I’ll be amazed for example, if the ‘Heritage’ Blue and grey meets the MOQ). Don’t really understand your point about C&M and class 156’s being local and 314’s not? That suggests people only model what is in the locality of their model shop? I live in Kent, but chose to model the Glasgow area, as a lot of items (including several of Revolution’s are available). There are other retailers such as Rails, Kernow, Hattons and Gaugemaster who could also commission, but I thought of C&M as they tend to commission Scottish themed items (even though they are in England! )

I think it’s now clear that Revolution won’t entertain the idea of doing a Carmine & Cream 314 and unfortunately seemed to have based this on sales of the 320, which as has been said many times, is not a fair comparison. Mike did say prove the demand for 250-300 orders, but doesn’t want to add to the orders as is worried people will only choose one livery and none will meet the required threshold. Maybe an enterprising retailer might offer this as an exclusive? C&M Models immediately springs to mind, as they have a history of commissioning Scottish themed models. They were very astute in doing a Saltire liveried class 156 DMU, which sold out very quickly and commands £200 plus price’s secondhand on eBay. They might recognise the demand for such a core livery and do very well from it. The fact that an N gauge emu is attracting so many comments on here (normally days/weeks pass with no posts on threads,) suggests they may be something in what we’re all saying! C&M are you reading this?

Hi Mike, You can’t cover 23 years of the C&C era! You said earlier ‘show me 250-300 sales and we’ll do it’ so wouldn’t the easiest thing be to offer the livery when you open the order book. If there’s not enough, I’m more than happy to pipe down, but unless it is offered, we will never know! I also think C&C would be ordered in tandem with the other two liveries either side of it, as they can prototypically can be run together in a wide timespan. I appreciate there were more 313’s than 314’s, but even taking this into account, 3 core liveries doesn’t seem excessive compared to the 7 plus being offered for the 313?

I don’t think choice of modelling areas is just down to the size of your local population. How many people model areas away from their home station? The vast majority, I suspect. I’m not sure if you fully understand the point about the exclusion of the Carmine &Cream livery, but basically people have flagged up that the livery that was around for the most recent 23 years of a 40 year career. I don’t think direct comparison to the class 320 livery sales is helpful or applicable as they are polar opposites in timescales to liveries applied. Revolution normally open orders to the public before confirming factory orders, so as Mike suggested earlier ‘show me 250-300 orders and we’ll make it’ , the only way to prove this is by offering it. 3 options across a 40 year lifespan doesn’t seem excessive, especially when comparing some of the more obscure options being offered for the class 313.

Hi Ben, I understand offering too many livery choices might harm sales, but offering three rather than two options for a 40 year lifespan unit doesn’t seem excessive and I strongly suspect a lot of modellers will order two sequential liveries (eg Strathclyde Orange & C&C or C&C and Saltire liveries, as these can prototypically be run side by side across a wide timescale) In that scenario, running C&C might actually help sales of the other two liveries. If splitting sales is the sole reason for excluding Carmine & Cream for the 314, then why wouldn’t this be the same issue for the 313, where there are, arguably, many more ‘fringe liveries’ being offered? It just doesn’t make sense?

Hi Ben, The thing I can’t understand is, although there are multiple liveries being offered on the 313, there are only 2 for the 314, so if it’s purely a worry that offering a third one will harm the sales of the other two, then surely this is equally applicable to the 313? Would it not be possible to offer the Carmine & Cream and see if there is enough demand for it? If there isn’t, I’m more than happy to accept I was wrong and Revolution were right all along. It just seems a bit defeatist to deny modellers the chance to ‘put their money where their mouth is’ and potentially help the product receive enough orders and help Revolution’s commercial success, which obviously, is in all our interests

Hi Mike, the only way we can prove you wrong is if you offer the Carmine & Cream livery when you open the order book. If it doesn’t achieve 250-300, then we will at least know. To be honest, I’d order 2 of C&C and probably 1 of Saltire as it is a nice Current liveries always tend to sell well and in the case of the 314’s C&C, in effect is the latest livery for two thirds of the class. If you offer C&C, I’ll order 3, but if not I’m only going to order 1, so in terms of getting the project over the line, excluding it seems to be counter-productive. Not every modeller will only order 1 of a product, so splitting sales won’t always be an issue, particularly when it’s a core livery. The class 320 is a totally different scenario because they have all been in Saltire livery for the last 10 years or so, so it’s not comparing ‘apples with apples’ Can you not at least put the decision to us customers by putting it on the orders?

I totally agree with everything you say. I cannot see why a 314 in C&C would sell less than the 313 in Southern, Heritage B&G, Silverlink or Urban Lights livery and certainly would expect it to outsell Network Rail, which like the Heritage B&G are one-off liveries. N gauge forums rarely have this many people being vocal, so the fact that so many have already mentioned this in less than 24 hours, surely suggests there is something in what we are saying? I’m a big supporter of Revolution models; I have 3 Pendolinos, 4 Caledonian Sleeper packs, a TPE Mk 5 set and have recently purchased 3 class 92’s, which I think are fab. I just want the project to succeed and think they are making a big blunder excluding C&C, the livery worn by all units for the longest period of time and suitable for anyone modelling 1997 onwards? At least putting it up for orders would seem the most pragmatic approach, rather than flatly refusing to do it when there is obvious demand for it?

I understand why the Revolution guys want to limit the choices of liveries to make projects more viable, but I think excluding Carmine & Cream which for the vast majority of units was the current livery, they have unintentionally made it harder for the 314’s to reach the MOQ’s required to make them possible. I know they have gone by what liveries sold for the 320, but the circumstances are very different in that only 5 314 units received the Saltire livery and where the most recent liveries normally sell very well, they have effectively excluded a large proportion of potential buyers. I am really gutted to be honest as they look fantastic

I do understand what you’re saying about offering too many liveries and splitting the MOQ’s required. However, if you model the current scene (or even the last 20 years, which a lot of modellers do,) you’re excluding the most common livery and one which has been around since 1997. If it was a one off or niche livery, I could understand it’s exclusion, but if the Southern, Heritage B&G, Silverlink and Urban Lights liveries are all viable, it does seem a curious decision to exclude C&C for the 314’s, which is one of the longest lasting liveries? Sorry, I don’t want to come across as difficult, (I love your products and have many more on order,) but I do wonder if you’re shooting yourselves in the foot by this livery exclusion. I hope you will reconsider, so I can buy a couple!

Totally understand where you’re coming from, but the 314’s are a slightly different case to the 320’s in that the Carmine & Cream livery has been the the most common livery for the last 23 years, so it seems strange to exclude the livery that most wore for the longest period of service. The 320’s were different in that the Saltire livery was applied to the whole class and quite a few years ago, whereas it was only applied to just 6 units of the class 314’s. It’s a little bit like releasing a class 47 and not doing it in BR Blue. Please could you reconsider, as would love a couple of 314’s looking at those CAD’s

Let’s hope so as these will make a nice companion to the excellent class 92’s.

All the 314’s were delivered in Blue & Grey livery from new in 1979. The Strathclyde Orange and Black livery was first introduced in 1986, but it would have taken quite a while to repaint all units, so B&G livery would be appropriate if you modelled the 1980’s period.

It’s a very strange decision to exclude the Carmine and Cream livery, as it was worn by all of the class from 1997 to when most units were withdrawn in 2019/20, so represents well over half of the units lifespan. I’m hoping these are offered as I won’t be able to justify one with the 20 year timescale of my layout, which would be a real shame as 5he CAD’s look fantastic!

Very interested in the class 314, but very surprised that you aren’t offering this in Blue & Grey or the Carmine & Cream liveries as these were a lot longer lived than the Saltire livery that was only applied to a handful of sets? Is there no way you can put these on the ordering list when you open it and see if you get enough orders? Failing that, it would make sense for these liveries being exclusive retailer options, as these were a lot more mainstream than the 313 Heritage Blue & Grey or Network Yellow liveries?