Cheltenham Lansdown

[Joseph_Pestell]

A thread about trains terminating in through platforms has led me to take an interest in Cheltenham Lansdown and the junction immediately to the south where the GWR branch to St James diverged northwards (later to Birmingham via Stratford) and the MSWJ/GWR Banbury branch diverged eastwards. A truly interesting location to model, especially in its 1942 - 1956 form. I am aware that Western MRS (Acton) had a layout based on Lansdown Station.

 

But a couple of questions....

 

1) I have not had much luck so far tracking down good photos of the junction trackwork. From the OS map, it looks as though the diamonds did not have curves through them which seems surprising. Is that right? If so, It would be possible to build a decent representation using ready-to-lay pointwork.

 

2) When MSWJ trains were terminating at Lansdown, there is no obvious easy solution to turn the locomotive (i.e. a turntable). So am I right to assume that they used the triangle formed by Hatherley Jct and Cheltenham Loop Jct?

[The Stationmaster]

The Six Inch OS map shows a turntable in Alston Sidings and presumably as the stock off an M&SWJ train would go in there prior to crossing over it seems probable that the engine was turned there?

 

The layout at Lansdown Jcn was considerably changed in 1942 so you need to watch the date on any information you acquire but that presumably explains the dates you have chosen.  Lots of stuff on the 'net of course - the signalbox diagram is on the SRS site and is the one for the 1942 'box.   Another item on the 'net shows the engine for the 10.00 to Southampton as arriving from Malvern Road.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Thanks, Mike.

 

What was the date of that OS map? I was looking at a 1950s map but entirely possible that turntable had been removed at the same time (or earlier) as the link between MSWJ and Lansdown.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Another question that I forgot to ask earlier....

 

Southern Region locos worked the MSWJR in BR days. Every photo that I have seen so far has a U class 2-6-0. Was anything else ever used?

[The Stationmaster]

Thanks, Mike.

 

What was the date of that OS map? I was looking at a 1950s map but entirely possible that turntable had been removed at the same time (or earlier) as the link between MSWJ and Lansdown.

It's the 1880-1913 OS 6 inch as found on the site linked below

 

http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/sidebyside.cfm#zoom=13&lat=51.8986&lon=-2.0766&layers=171&right=BingHyb

[The Stationmaster]

Another question that I forgot to ask earlier....

 

Southern Region locos worked the MSWJR in BR days. Every photo that I have seen so far has a U class 2-6-0. Was anything else ever used?

Definitely 'Manors'  and 43XX

[Joseph_Pestell]

Definitely 'Manors'  and 43XX

 

Sorry, poorly worded question.  I meant anything else of Southern origin.

[Joseph_Pestell]

It's the 1880-1913 OS 6 inch as found on the site linked below

 

http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/sidebyside.cfm#zoom=13&lat=51.8986&lon=-2.0766&layers=171&right=BingHyb

More map searching has found that turntable on a 1932 OS map but not at the same location in 1955.

[figworthy]

A thread about trains terminating in through platforms has led me to take an interest in Cheltenham Lansdown and the junction immediately to the south where the GWR branch to St James diverged northwards (later to Birmingham via Stratford) and the MSWJ/GWR Banbury branch diverged eastwards. A truly interesting location to model, especially in its 1942 - 1956 form. I am aware that Western MRS (Acton) had a layout based on Lansdown Station.

 

But a couple of questions....

 

1) I have not had much luck so far tracking down good photos of the junction trackwork. From the OS map, it looks as though the diamonds did not have curves through them which seems surprising. Is that right? If so, It would be possible to build a decent representation using ready-to-lay pointwork.

 

2) When MSWJ trains were terminating at Lansdown, there is no obvious easy solution to turn the locomotive (i.e. a turntable). So am I right to assume that they used the triangle formed by Hatherley Jct and Cheltenham Loop Jct?

 

If you can get hold of a copy, "Steam Routes around Cheltenham and Tewkesbury, Winchcombe and Andoversford" by Stephen Mourton has photos and maps from various times in the past. 

 

http://www.swindonsotherrailway.co.uk/ may also be helpful.

 

Adrian

[jonny777]

It's the 1880-1913 OS 6 inch as found on the site linked below

 

http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/sidebyside.cfm#zoom=13&lat=51.8986&lon=-2.0766&layers=171&right=BingHyb

 

 

Thanks for that link. What a superb resource that 'side by side' option is.

 

I have just lost 60 minutes of my life studying the details of Dowlais past; and where everything has gone present.

[The Stationmaster]

Thanks for that link. What a superb resource that 'side by side' option is.

 

I have just lost 60 minutes of my life studying the details of Dowlais past; and where everything has gone present.

Yes - someone on here recommended it but it definitely needs to be treated with considerable caution or addiction is inevitable.

[Tim Chambers]

Sorry to go OT, but may I add my thanks to Mike. What an incredible web site!

[Joseph_Pestell]

If you can get hold of a copy, "Steam Routes around Cheltenham and Tewkesbury, Winchcombe and Andoversford" by Stephen Mourton has photos and maps from various times in the past. 

 

http://www.swindonsotherrailway.co.uk/ may also be helpful.

 

Adrian

 

Thanks, Adrian. I was aware of that website but only had time this morning to go through it completely. Seems that 2-6-0s were the only ex-SR locos used. I was rather hoping for a T9 as per the DN&S.

 

Mike's mention of Alston Sidings gives another potential aspect to any layout. Note a comment on the website that the MSWJ trains all ran forward to the sidings after terminating and did not make use of the south-facing bay which had been constructed specially for MSWJ trains.

 

Rule 1 may be brought into play.

[Rivercider]

A thread about trains terminating in through platforms has led me to take an interest in Cheltenham Lansdown and the junction immediately to the south where the GWR branch to St James diverged northwards (later to Birmingham via Stratford) and the MSWJ/GWR Banbury branch diverged eastwards. A truly interesting location to model, especially in its 1942 - 1956 form. I am aware that Western MRS (Acton) had a layout based on Lansdown Station.

 

But a couple of questions....

 

1) I have not had much luck so far tracking down good photos of the junction trackwork. From the OS map, it looks as though the diamonds did not have curves through them which seems surprising. Is that right? If so, It would be possible to build a decent representation using ready-to-lay pointwork.

 

2) When MSWJ trains were terminating at Lansdown, there is no obvious easy solution to turn the locomotive (i.e. a turntable). So am I right to assume that they used the triangle formed by Hatherley Jct and Cheltenham Loop Jct?

I am just reading 'Cab Chat' an article in the Cornishman magazine no.101 Summer 2007, issued by the Gloucestershire Warwickshire Railway.

 

Norman Gibbs article recalls working under blackout conditions, it is not dated but presumably is sometime between 1939 and 1945.

Part of the article is

 

....Running into Lansdown Station with the late 'Southampton' we stabled the stock in the MSWJR sidings.

The small turntable there was not big enough for the Manors, so we usually turned by the Hatherly Triangle.

Leaving the station we ran to Lansdown Junction, on to Hatherly East, reversed to Hatherly West, reversed back to Lansdown Junction

then on to the shed at Malvern Road ready for the next day' ......  

 

cheers

[TheSignalEngineer]

One of the wartime propaganda pamphlets had a shot of the remodelling of Lansdown Junction.

I don't have the book to hand at the moment but I seem to remember a lot of switch diamonds.

[Joseph_Pestell]

I am just reading 'Cab Chat' an article in the Cornishman magazine no.101 Summer 2007, issued by the Gloucestershire Warwickshire Railway.

 

Norman Gibbs article recalls working under blackout conditions, it is not dated but presumably is sometime between 1939 and 1945.

Part of the article is

 

....Running into Lansdown Station with the late 'Southampton' we stabled the stock in the MSWJR sidings.

The small turntable there was not big enough for the Manors, so we usually turned by the Hatherly Triangle.

Leaving the station we ran to Lansdown Junction, on to Hatherly East, reversed to Hatherly West, reversed back to Lansdown Junction

then on to the shed at Malvern Road ready for the next day' ......  

 

cheers

 

Thanks for that. I had not considered the size of the turntable. But it does show that it was still there for some time after the 1932 OS map.

 

Interesting that he refers to Hatherley East. All docs that I have seen refer to Gloucester Loop Jct.

 

I have just been looking at the J H Russell book on the Banbury-Cheltenham line. Some good photos there but the junctions are shown post the 1956 changes.

[Joseph_Pestell]

One of the wartime propaganda pamphlets had a shot of the remodelling of Lansdown Junction.

I don't have the book to hand at the moment but I seem to remember a lot of switch diamonds.

 

I would expect them to be switched - something that I have no experience of modelling. Must check the SRS drawing.

[DCB]

The MSWJR "Alstone lane" carriage sidings were to the north of Lansdown station and were still in use last time I was there for turning back London services.  The Turntable was at the north end of the carriage sidings..  The MSWJR loco depot and goods sidings were further north at Cheltenham High Street. A loco depot building survives next to "Range" on Tewkesbury Road, I think it is MSWJR one. It seems the Alstone lane Turntable was the only one for the MR / MSWJR arCheltenham as the loco depot does not seem to have turning facilities.  The shed closed in 1935 and the locos moved to Cheltenham Malvern road shed a few hundred yards away on the GWR line.

 

The GW and Midland converged just south of Lansdown Station and the GW passed behind the station in a cutting, Lansdown Station building pre dated the railway by 50 or so years and was higher than the tracks, level with the road the Midland / MSWJR passed under.  Before the line to Gloucester was quadrupled in 194(?) The GW and MIdland/MSW converged just north of the A 40 raod bridge and The GW Kingham / MSWJR diverged from the GW/Midland line to Gloucester immediately south of the A40 road bridge.

Track layout changes in 1958 prevented access from Lansdown to the MSW so through goods services ceased and the single remaining passenger went into St James (GW ) station

 

GW Malvern Road station (on the GW Birmingham / Stratford line) was  a short walk from Lansdown and St James was not far from Malvern Road the lines to Birmingham diverging just after the St James station throat near the Waitrose supermarket.

 

Acording to David Bartholomew  History of the MSWJR  MSWJR trains stopped at Lansdown  drew forward and reversed into Alstone Land sidings where the engine cut off nd turned on the Turntable before reversing to High Street shed. (Later running to Malvern Road)

 

Southbound they could run from Alstone sidings, or from photos start from the bay. I suspect they waited in the bay for through carriages as they could reverse on to coaches left in the down platform (Southbound)(MR)   A long siding to the south of the Northbound platform looks the likely place where northbound through coaches could have been shunted to await a northbound train. I understand through coaches ended with the second world war

 

Although the last years from November 1958 to Sept 61 the passenger trains were dominated by SR U class from Eastleigh I understand previously three through passengers and three through fitted freights each way were run so that would have been one U class working up and back and the rest GW locos, Manors and Moguls presumably

 

Swindon used the MSWJR to test new DMUs which adds to the variety.

 

I think the Hatherley curve was only rarely used, There was a MSWJR line goods to Gloucester at one stage between the Wars, and an attempt to run Iron Ore trains from Banbury to Gloucester over the 1:40 gradients from Bourton on the water to Notgrove but no regular traffic as far as I know.   EDIT I completely forgot the Ports to Ports which went from Gloucester up the MSW/GW Kingham branch, 2 sets I GW  1 LNER crossed on the over bridge at Kingham as it was the only loop long enough between Andoversford and main line south of Banbury,  

 

I would be interested to know if /how transfer trips were worked from High Street to Malvern Road / St James, or did everything ho to Goucester and back again

[Joseph_Pestell]

David,

Thank you. Some interesting points there.

Others have mentioned the trains drawing forward to Alstone Sidings rather than being shunted in the station itself. A bit of a shame in terms of a layout. The station crossovers would seem to have been there to deal with parcels traffic etc being dropped off into the parcels bays/ end-loading dock.

I have not seen photos of MSWJ trains in the bay but did find a comment on one website that the bay, although intended for MSWJ trains, was not used, with trains starting from the Alstone Sidings. But, as you say, through carriage working would need the bay.

I have rather a liking for Swindon cross-country DMUs so they would definitely feature somewhere.

The Hatherley Curve (Gloucester Loop) does not seem very useful for goods and was lifted quite early (at the same time as the Lansdown Jct simplification?). But it did have an interesting passenger working, the Ports to Ports Express which was a joint LNER/GWR venture.

Much to think about in terms of what parts to model, in which scale, and at what era.

 

Edit to add: There were plenty of crossovers so a trip working would not be too difficult. My guess would be that they would pull onto the Banbury branch, and the locomotive run round using the crossovers at Gloucester Loop Jct and at the start of the St James' branch. I don't think that there is any signalling to restart the train towards St James but it could be flagged by the signalman.

[Joseph_Pestell]

I would expect them to be switched - something that I have no experience of modelling. Must check the SRS drawing.

 

The three long diamonds were indeed switched. The four more obtuse angled diamonds (MSWJ - Lansdown crossing GW Gloucester - Honeybourne) were not.

[Joseph_Pestell]

The three long diamonds were indeed switched. The four more obtuse angled diamonds (MSWJ - Lansdown crossing GW Gloucester - Honeybourne) were not.

 

More trawling on the web has turned up a very well researched article on Lansdown Jct based on the signalbox register for a Saturday in February 1956. It has enabled me to find answers to many of the points raised in this thread and confirm some others as well as providing an excellent photo of part of the junction taken from within the box.

 

The downside is that I can not model all of it, even in N. I would not mind building a layout that was "exhibition-only" rather than erected permanently but this would be a monster even to store. So for the time being, I would have to make a choice and create a diorama of one part with a view to a future empire. Although the next signalbox north from Lansdown Station was called Alstone Jct, the sidings themselves were apparently called Vineyards Sidings. So that seems to "have my name on it" and would be a much easier starting point than the station.

[seahorse]

There is a good group of aerial photos of Alstone/ Vineyard in 1931 showing the turntable on www.britainfromabove.org.uk - search for Cheltenham, and there are also pictures of the station and the old layout of Lansdown Jct

 

There is also a 1:1250 map dated 1954 on www.old-maps,co.uk, with a 100 metre grid - approx 2 feet squares for N gauge showing most of the tracks before rationalisation ( but not the turntable)

 

I have been interested in this line since my first journey in 1968 past vast swathes of dereliction eg Bromsgrove, Gloucester Eastgate, Westerleigh  - I seem to have been collecting photos, trackplans, signal diagrams ever since

[Joseph_Pestell]

Hi Seahorse,

Thanks for that link to the aerial photos. I will take a look at those later.

I have been using that 1954 OS map on old-maps but had not been quite able to work out an exact scale.

One variation that  maps seem to throw up is whether the down bay and down sidings at Lansdown had separate points or a three-way point (as shown in some photos). Are the maps wrong or was the track layout changed? (Note to self: check what is shown on SRS diagram).

If this project does go ahead (and I have had more than my fair share of false starts), I may need to cheat a bit anyway on exact era/timescale. But my preferred option is mid 50s - mid 60s by which time locos were having to go to St James to be turned or, if too big for the turntable there, turned on the triangle.

 

Joseph

[seahorse]

OK Back from the bookshelves!

 

"Steam Routes around Cheltenham" by Stephen Mourton, Runpast Publishing 1993

Includes photo dated 1961 showing 3 way point ( straight for main, and two right curves for bay and siding), with 3 layer ground signal. Another photo less clear shows same in Midland days

 

Also interesting photos in  "Birmingham-Bristol Portrait of a famous route" by Stephen Mourton and Bob Pixton, Runpast Publishing 2003

 

"Track Layout Diagrams of GWR Section 35 Gloucester and Cheltenham" R A Cooke 1978

TT at Alstone tou 10/12/1053

Down sidings at Lansdown tou 10/10/65, and platforms extended

Hatherley Curve closed 1956, removed 1957

[Joseph_Pestell]

Thanks, once again.

 

I think that this is definitely going to be a Templot/handbuilt track job. I may have another go myself but will probably end up asking someone to build for me.

 

Those aerial photos are very good.