Castle Aching

[Regularity]

If your layout was set 30 years earlier, scotch blocks would have been more likely, but operationally they are a pain as there would be a padlock kept in the charge of the signalman, which means trips back and forth, whereas the single (or double, or full turnout) can be operated from the same lever in the frame as that which operates the turnout fo access to the siding(s).

 

The sky here is a not unattractive sepia shade. As I had dozed off, it was a bit of a surprise when I awoke!

[Edwardian]

Reading this thread has had be going through what limited literature on the M&GN I have. It seems to be accepted that once the Joint had enough Johnson 4-4-0s and 0-6-0s, they worked all trains east of Bourne, though prior to that, Midland engines worked to and were stationed at Lynn (and likewise for the Great Northern from Peterborough. Evidently there were some through workings - excursions? - which were the exception to this rule.

 

No 69A was a member of the 890 Class, a class of 62 engines, 20 built by Neilsons and 42 at Derby over the period 1871-75, i.e. begun by Kirtley and completed by Johnson. They started off in a variety of styles - earlier engines having almost a Crewe look to them. By 1895 they had all been rebuilt and conformed to the 'house style'; with 6' 8 1/2" drivers there was little to distinguish them visually from the 1400 Class upon which the Ratio kit is based. So in a word, yes.

 

There were a series of articles in Midland Record on the various classes of 'transitional' 2-4-0s, by the genuinely learned David Hunt. I'll dig them out and see what you'd actually have to do to the kit.

 

EDIT: Ten new posts were made to this thread while I was typing that...

 

Tricky of this parish, he of the exquisite 7 mil evocation of the Midland in London, very, very kindly was letting me have his collection of the Midland Record, a goodly portion of the whole, but, alas, My Hermes has lost the lot!

[Edwardian]

If your layout was set 30 years earlier, scotch blocks would have been more likely, but operationally they are a pain as there would be a padlock kept in the charge of the signalman, which means trips back and forth, whereas the single (or double, or full turnout) can be operated from the same lever in the frame as that which operates the turnout fo access to the siding(s).

 

The sky here is a not unattractive sepia shade. As I had dozed off, it was a bit of a surprise when I awoke!

 

Thank you.  Yes, they looked like something you had to walk up to and move, whereas I hope CA might be busy enough at times to make that a bit of a pain!

 

I think releasing by lever - same lever as the point to the mainline as I understand it and I understand you to mean - is the best option.

[Regularity]

The question of a signal controlling access to and from the siding depends really on the situation. In the absence of a signal a move can be authorised by a flag from the signalman. However where a place is reasonably busy a signal would be likely. I think either a short arm signal or a ground signal to allow access out and a Bracket signal controlling access to the various lines I think a short arm on their to signal entry in. Possibly overkill but I like signals and following the 1889 act may well have been thought necessary

 

It depends on a lot of things, as you say. In theory, the simple fact that the points have been thrown is a pretty clear indication as to what is going on, and the interlocking - including of and by block instruments - will prevent any adverse movements. But signals, probably ground signals based on GE and M&GN practice - would prevent the points being thrown during a movement.

If there is an outer home to protect the station, there might not even be a ground disc for entry into the yard, the home signal serving to indicate a clear indication and lock the points, but I think that would be unlikely.

On the LSWR, the usually used pull-push levers for the paired ground signals. They stood in the middle of the quadrant when normal, and you pulled for one direction and pushed for the other. Economical, a simple way to prevent both being pulled at once, but it must have added a little complication to the interlocking at times.

[DonB]

Quote:- 

 

69A is here pictured at South Lynn (the M&GN station).   Incidentally, here she is described as on an Up service, which I assume is back home to Midland territory, having been turned, watered and filled her tender with coal at Lynn, but someone please correct me if that is wrong.

 

 

 

 

 

The description of "UP" or "Down" has frequently baffled me. I understood that trains went UP to London and DOWN away from London hence "Up Lines" and "Down lines". the logic of some of the UP and DOWN descriptions applied to branch lines escaped me, especially when it applied it secondary branches which had North-bound and South-bound junctions at one or both ends as some cross country routes do or did.

Edited October 16, 2017 by DonB

[Regularity]

Usually Up to junction, and Down back home.

 

On cross country routes, there is less clarity. In theory, up could be towards the (most) major station, but unless it was a terminus, that could result in trains from opposite directions both being described as up! I am sure a decision would have been made to choose one over the other.

[Compound2632]

 

  69A is here pictured at South Lynn (the M&GN station).   Incidentally, here she is described as on an Up service, which I assume is back home to Midland territory, having been turned, watered and filled her tender with coal at Lynn, but someone please correct me if that is wrong.

 

 

 

 

 

The description of "UP" or "Down" has frequently baffled me. I understood that trains went UP to London and DOWN away from London hence "Up Lines" and "Down lines". the logic of some of the UP and DOWN descriptions applied to branch lines escaped me, especially when it applied it secondary branches which had North-bound and South-bound junctions at one or both ends as some cross country routes do or did.

 

 

The most recent issue of the Journal of the Midland Railway Society had as its back cover illustration, an 1864 order from James Allport, the General Manager, stating that what was formerly went up would now come down (and vice-versa), between Birmingham and Derby.

 

(When the B&DJR was first opened, of course one went up from Derby to London via Hampton-in-Arden and the L&BR; in 1864, the line between Whitacre and Nuneaton was opened, so it became up from Birmingham to London via Wigston. The mileposts still read from 0 at Derby London Road Junction heading towards Birmingham and Bristol, I believe. Of course when heading down, one counts up, reading the mileposts!)

[Edwardian]

 

Quote:- 

 

69A is here pictured at South Lynn (the M&GN station).   Incidentally, here she is described as on an Up service, which I assume is back home to Midland territory, having been turned, watered and filled her tender with coal at Lynn, but someone please correct me if that is wrong.

 

 

 

 

 

The description of "UP" or "Down" has frequently baffled me. I understood that trains went UP to London and DOWN away from London hence "Up Lines" and "Down lines". the logic of some of the UP and DOWN descriptions applied to branch lines escaped me, especially when it applied it secondary branches which had North-bound and South-bound junctions at one or both ends as some cross country routes do or did.

 

 

 

Usually Up to junction, and Down back home.

 

On cross country routes, there is less clarity. In theory, up could be towards the (most) major station, but unless it was a terminus, that could result in trains from opposite directions both being described as up! I am sure a decision would have been made to choose one over the other.

 

 

Indeed, hence my tentative suggestion that she was heading home.  I thought, though, that South Lynn was likely her terminating point, and she would not arrive there with a full tender.

 

That said, cross country services baffle me, too.  North to West expresses on the GW to Devon and Cornwall from the North West/LNWR lines were "Down", but, then, the join the West of England mainline in the Down direction. So, these services go up to return home.

 

I realise I have not addressed my mind to the question of what the M&GN considered up and down when going east-west between Norwich and Bourne!

[Regularity]

Based on this, https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/lner/E252.gif, down to Norwich and back up to Bourne.

[Regularity]

I think you will find a study of {edit} these to be very informative:

Edited October 16, 2017 by Regularity

[Edwardian]

Based on this, https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/lner/E252.gif, down to Norwich and back up to Bourne.

 

So, from Lynn to Bourne is up, hence the full tender!

 

Thanks, though the link is "forbidden".

 

Also, [EDIT: both] Gif not showing in your second post[!]

Edited October 16, 2017 by Edwardian

[Edwardian]

Reading this thread has had be going through what limited literature on the M&GN I have. It seems to be accepted that once the Joint had enough Johnson 4-4-0s and 0-6-0s, they worked all trains east of Bourne, though prior to that, Midland engines worked to and were stationed at Lynn (and likewise for the Great Northern from Peterborough. Evidently there were some through workings - excursions? - which were the exception to this rule.

 

No 69A was a member of the 890 Class, a class of 62 engines, 20 built by Neilsons and 42 at Derby over the period 1871-75, i.e. begun by Kirtley and completed by Johnson. They started off in a variety of styles - earlier engines having almost a Crewe look to them. By 1895 they had all been rebuilt and conformed to the 'house style'; with 6' 8 1/2" drivers there was little to distinguish them visually from the 1400 Class upon which the Ratio kit is based. So in a word, yes.

 

There were a series of articles in Midland Record on the various classes of 'transitional' 2-4-0s, by the genuinely learned David Hunt. I'll dig them out and see what you'd actually have to do to the kit.

 

EDIT: Ten new posts were made to this thread while I was typing that...

 

That is good news indeed, thank you. Again, I'm sure I have one of these kits knocking about somewhere.

[Donw]

I like the example of Exeter St Davids where GWR trains crossed with LSWR trains going in opposite directions through the station although both headed either for London or Plymouth.

 

Don

[corneliuslundie]

You are lucky. In South Wales "up" meant uphill, except on the GWR. As a result, on the Pontypool Road to Neath line down was from PPL to Neath. There was a junction at Nelson & Llancaiach for the Taff Bargoed branch, which definitely went up hill (to about 1300 ftt). N&C had a loop platform on the up side (ie towards PPL). But the direction changed in the middle of the platform: at the  west end it was Up to Dowlais (Cae Harris); at he east end of was Up to PPL. Meanwhile just to the east was Penalltau Junction where a link from the Rhymney main line came in from the south east. So Up trains from Cardiff to Dowlais reached the junction and became down trains as far as N&C where they crossed to the loop platform. In the middle of the platform they became up trains again.

At least on the LNWR and Midland lines it was simpler as they both accessed the valleys from the north so down was down hill.

An orange sun this morning, now getting windy.

Jonathan

[Regularity]

Thanks, though the link is "forbidden".

 

Also, [EDIT: both] Gif not showing in your second post[!]

I can see them both, although I do occasionally get the other problem.

[Northroader]

I think if you had one of those blocks on the entrance to sidings, like in BGJs cranmore piccy, it would only be used a couple of times a day, say. A shunter would walk over and move it, the signalman would set the road, but the shunter would wave the train in, which he’d have to do anyway, and after shunting was finished, put the block back. There might be a key for a padlock placed in the box, but it would be doubtful if any interlocking was made with the block itself. It’s therefore more likely to be on a siding entrance than a run round loop.

On the North to West Line the frontier point was Hereford. A northbound train from Newport Maindy Junction was a down train, but leaving Barr’s Court it became an up train for the rest of the way to Shrewsbury. There was a peculiar set up in South Wales, old lines amalgamated into the GWR such as the Monmouthshire or the Llynfi & Ogmore adopted the GWR up and down practice, but the ones that came into the fold in 1922 such as the TVR and the Rhymney had the practice of calling up and down with the ruling grade in the valleys, and this was retaIned after the GWR took over.

[Poggy1165]

Up is not always to London. On the CLC it was Up to Liverpool. On the L&Y, Up to Manchester (Victoria). 

[Regularity]

Up is not always to London. On the CLC it was Up to Liverpool. On the L&Y, Up to Manchester (Victoria).

 

Hardly surprising, given that neither went to London...

[DonB]

Gosh, I didn't mean to start another side-track (sorry) by recounting my bewilderment on Up and Down directions of travel. However the erudite explanations given explain (almost) all

 

CA Seems busy today (Hooray!) people having a day off because of the weather threats?

 

Talking of the weather, the Orange Sun mentioned earlier which we saw here in S.Derbyshire also, was , according to an ITV forecaster due to the wild fires burning in Portugal, whipped up by the Storm Ophelia's winds. Said that pilots at 30,000 ft could smell the smoke!

[Nearholmer]

London itself gets interesting, too, because a lot of routes don't go to the great termini. A bit like trying to use a compass to find direction at the North Pole. The ultimate departure is the circle line, which has 'inner' and 'outer', and there is a mnemonic for equivalence: WIND - westbound, inner, northbound, down; OUSE - outer, up,southbound, eastbound.

Edited October 16, 2017 by Nearholmer

[nick_bastable]

 

Quote:- 

 

69A is here pictured at South Lynn (the M&GN station).   Incidentally, here she is described as on an Up service, which I assume is back home to Midland territory, having been turned, watered and filled her tender with coal at Lynn, but someone please correct me if that is wrong.

 

 

 

 

 

The description of "UP" or "Down" has frequently baffled me. I understood that trains went UP to London and DOWN away from London hence "Up Lines" and "Down lines". the logic of some of the UP and DOWN descriptions applied to branch lines escaped me, especially when it applied it secondary branches which had North-bound and South-bound junctions at one or both ends as some cross country routes do or did.

 

from the gloriously sunny Kent coast everything is up down  is French France 

 

Nick

[Caley Jim]

  There was this arrangement at the end of the loop at Peebles.  I'm at my daughter's house looking after her dog this evening, but I'll try and post the Pebbles picture tomorrow.

Jings, crivvens, help ma boab!!!  I only posted this late last night and I had to go back 2 pages to find it!!  

 

As promised the photos of Peebles, scanned from the book by Peter Marshall.

 

 

The 'double single switch' trap is in the right foreground of the upper photo and the left of the lower one.  The latter is taken from the bridge.

 

Ironically the line through the bridge, which linked to the NB station on the other side of the town, was never used by passenger trains.  The relative positions of the stations can be seen on this map.  The bridge in the photo and the embankment on Ninians Haugh are still there,but the station site is now housing and an ambulance depot.

 

Norte also the single switch trap on the dock siding leading off the platform line in the right foreground of the lower photo.

 

Jim

[Nearholmer]

Fascinating set of railways, and it made me read-up on Peebles town. For a place with not many more than 8000 residents, which isn't a great many, it seems to have a lot going for it.

[uax6]

Going back to scotches, there was a scotch fitted to the goods yard lead at Magdelan Road, sadly I can't find a picture of that end off the station showing it, but there are a few in the Middleton press book on the Ely to Lynn line.

[scotcent]

Circumstances  alter  cases,  and  the  nature  and  location  of  a  trap  would  depend  on  local  circumstances.  So  It  could  be  a  full  turnout  leading  to  another  siding  or  perhaps  to  a  headshunt.  Or  it  could  be  a  single  or  double  switch  which  would  dump  the  runaway  in  the  ballast  --  hopefully  on  the  side  away  from  the  main  line!  Occasionally  there  might  be  a  double  sided  switch  which  simply  dumped  the  stray  in  the  four  foot  without  diverting  it  to  either  side.  This  was  to  be  found  at  Perth  where  the  Dundee  bay  had  up  and  down  lines  with  a  siding  between  them,  so  they  didn't  want  the  runaway  diverted  to  either  side.  The  intention  always  was  to  ensure  that  a  runaway  could  never  access  the  main  running  lines.

Incidentally,  a  train  trailing  through  a  switch  set  against  it  might  well  damage  the  switch  mechanism,  but  it  won't  be  stopped  or,  probably,  derailed.

 

Allan  F