Castle Aching

[Compound2632]

I. Outgoing goods loading shed. Inspiration here.

[webbcompound]

Very nice, and an excellent example of how to use branded rolling stockj and locos without modelling the home factory. I fear, however that the track layout was designed by a visiting American.

 

[Edwardian]

9 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I. Outgoing goods loading shed. Inspiration here.

 

That is exactly what building (I) is inspired by, as you doubtless guessed.

[Edwardian]

12 minutes ago, webbcompound said:

Very nice, and an excellent example of how to use branded rolling stockj and locos without modelling the home factory. I fear, however that the track layout was designed by a visiting American.

 

 

Quite possibly, but that's because, in my experience, Americans have the happy knack of arranging things to be easy to operate!

 

If you have any deliberate difficult British alternative in mind, do feel free!

 

(do, genuinely feel free; prototypical track plans are not a strength of mine!)

 

 

Edited November 13, 2020 by Edwardian

[Joseph_Pestell]

On 10/11/2020 at 14:57, Adam88 said:

 Who else remembers George Slater of Slater's Plastikard demonstrating on his stand at the old Manchester exhibition?  He invariably had a fag going with about an inch and a half of delicately poised ash.  It was stated on the bottle that you should never smoke while using the MEK solvent as it would turn into phosgene.  Apparently though it didn't do George much harm as he lasted well into his eighties or nineties and his lungs had already taken a beating after being gassed in the Great War.  In those days all the model shows were 'atmospheric' (carcinogenic?), very many well-known modellers would be seen smoking a pipe and sometimes sharing a bottle of claret.  One of my friends declares that railway modelling can be a very unhealthy hobby if you're not careful.  On the other hand the social and mental health benefits of being able to engage with like-minded folk via places such as this can be tremendous.

 

Another good reason not to smoke where MEK is concerned. It is very volatile.

 

At one well-known Paris model shop, the modelmaker came in on Monday morning while smoking and opened up the cabinet that contained his workbench. He had failed to properly close his bottle of MEK on Friday evening. The resulting explosion was fairly spectacular and led to serious injury.

[Compound2632]

All too true. I'm still faffing about designing my Biscuit Factory layout; it keeps coming out too long as I want to squeeze in an exchange siding so that main line engines can take traffic on and off stage. But I'm almost despairing as your buildings will be exquisite whereas mine - already built - are just Metcalfe bashes.

[Schooner]

14 hours ago, Edwardian said:

...prototypical track plans...

...include options that are not dissimilar. A personal favourite in the area might be overkill, but would be fun!

 

Typically lovely idea, well developed. Looking forward to seeing where this one leads  

Edited November 14, 2020 by Schooner
Map selection updated

[Edwardian]

Just now, Compound2632 said:

All too true. I'm still faffing about designing my Biscuit Factory layout; it keeps coming out too long as I want to squeeze in an exchange siding so that main line engines can take traffic on and off stage. But I'm almost despairing as your buildings will be exquisite whereas mine - already built - are just Metcalfe bashes.

 

Once you have a history for the factory, the type and style of the buildings suggest themselves. 

 

In my case, I looked at factories built in the UK in the 1890s and also at the contemporary star Norwich architects of the day (Edward Boardman and George Skipper) and this gives a really good feel for what Huntley & Palmer would have built, had the firm been building a factory in Norfolk in the period 1895-1900.  

 

George Skipper, in particular, I find to be a brilliant architect.  Yet again I am reminded how so much more quality stuff went on in the provinces than our London-centric cultural histories reflect.

 

The Metcalfe factory/brewery buildings have always struck me as some of their most attractive models and good for upgrading - as Chris Nevard has done.

 

Scalescenes do a very attractive series of industrial buildings:  Link

[Nearholmer]

One thing that makes "the typical compact Victorian British factory track layout" (not that there really was such a thing) harder to represent than the US equivalent is the extensive use of wagon-turntables, or if not actually turntables then track configurations that were intended for capstan, horse, or man-draulic shunting of individual wagons.

 

On a model railway where the shunting is the thing, IMO it is perfectly allowable to do things back to front, to design the track-layout first, optimised for locomotive shunting, then arrange the buildings around it. This might not result in an ideal production-flow for 1:76 scale biscuits, beer, or bicycles, but it can preserve sanity.

[petethemole]

On 10/11/2020 at 14:57, Adam88 said:

 Who else remembers George Slater of Slater's Plastikard demonstrating on his stand at the old Manchester exhibition?  He invariably had a fag going with about an inch and a half of delicately poised ash.  It was stated on the bottle that you should never smoke while using the MEK solvent as it would turn into phosgene.  Apparently though it didn't do George much harm as he lasted well into his eighties or nineties and his lungs had already taken a beating after being gassed in the Great War.  In those days all the model shows were 'atmospheric' (carcinogenic?), very many well-known modellers would be seen smoking a pipe and sometimes sharing a bottle of claret.  One of my friends declares that railway modelling can be a very unhealthy hobby if you're not careful.  On the other hand the social and mental health benefits of being able to engage with like-minded folk via places such as this can be tremendous.

Carbon Terachloride is the solvent whose fumes turn to phosgene when burnt.  It was widely used as a liquid cement in the early days of plastic modelling, so Slater may well have been using that.  The fumes are toxic and carcinogenic even without heating.

[Andy Hayter]

The MEK story seems to be quite complicated.

The first bottle I bought certainly did contain MEK as its major component (based on smell).

MEK was later identified as a potential carcinogen.

A later bottle bought certainly contained Carbon tet. as a major component - again based on smell.

Carbon Tet. was identified as a carcinogen (note not potential).

MEK was exonorated as at least not proven.

The next bottle of MEK had returned to having MEK as a major component and has (AFAIK) remained so ever since.  

[Edwardian]

29 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

One thing that makes "the typical compact Victorian British factory track layout" (not that there really was such a thing) harder to represent than the US equivalent is the extensive use of wagon-turntables, or if not actually turntables then track configurations that were intended for capstan, horse, or man-draulic shunting of individual wagons.

 

On a model railway where the shunting is the thing, IMO it is perfectly allowable to do things back to front, to design the track-layout first, optimised for locomotive shunting, then arrange the buildings around it. This might not result in an ideal production-flow for 1:76 scale biscuits, beer, or bicycles, but it can preserve sanity.

 

Very well put, if I may say so.

 

I'm no hand at track plans and my knowledge of prototype operations is not what it should be.

 

Some months ago I toyed with a plan for this factory that was all wagon TTs going at right angles.  I took a break and freed myself from that.  When I returned I focussed on something I could actually operate, i.e. that would get materials in and product out using a locomotive. 

 

The resultant plan was designed so that a small tank with cuts of, say, 3-5 wagons, could easily shunt the goods-in and goods-out roads and run round its train as necessary, using something very simple and modest.

 

To receive coal, you just shunt through to the end of the goods-in road (G) and off-load outside the main boiler house.  I'm guessing a couple of wagons of coal at a time is all that you'd want. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 13, 2020 by Edwardian
spelling!

[Joseph_Pestell]

44 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

One thing that makes "the typical compact Victorian British factory track layout" (not that there really was such a thing) harder to represent than the US equivalent is the extensive use of wagon-turntables, or if not actually turntables then track configurations that were intended for capstan, horse, or man-draulic shunting of individual wagons.

 

On a model railway where the shunting is the thing, IMO it is perfectly allowable to do things back to front, to design the track-layout first, optimised for locomotive shunting, then arrange the buildings around it. This might not result in an ideal production-flow for 1:76 scale biscuits, beer, or bicycles, but it can preserve sanity.

 

Found a clip of capstan shunting on YouTube a few days ago. Scary stuff with a wire rope flapping about. H&SE would never allow it these days.

I did take a look at modelling (in 1:43) a two-level goods depot in the London Docks. How to move wagons around the lower level is a conundrum. Perhaps something like the Faller road system??? Or simply, motorised wagons?

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Schooner said:

A personal favourite in the area might be overkill, but would be fun!

 

Always a good idea to include a continuous run for when the shunting palls!

[Compound2632]

Looking again at your plan, I see you've got the public road crossing with flagman that I had in mind. B*&&£r.

[Edwardian]

35 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Looking again at your plan, I see you've got the public road crossing with flagman that I had in mind. B*&&£r.

 

You should include it for the reason I did; it's appropriate.

 

 

[Andy Hayter]

1 hour ago, Edwardian said:

 

 

 

To receive coal, you just shunt through to the end of the goods-in road (G) and off-load outside the main boiler house.  I'm guessing a couple of wagons of coal at a time is all that you'd want. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

One thing to consider is whether a steam loco would be allowed to enter the shed.  It could be that you would have to employ several barrier wagons to avoid the inside of the shed being filled with smoke (bad for food products temporarily stored there) and with a risk of fire.

[Edwardian]

Just now, Andy Hayter said:

 

One thing to consider is whether a steam loco would be allowed to enter the shed.  It could be that you would have to employ several barrier wagons to avoid the inside of the shed being filled with smoke (bad for food products temporarily stored there) and with a risk of fire.

 

Good point, but I see the raw-materials-in road as having a canopy, rather than the enclosed shed where the biscuits are loaded (into which locos need not enter).  I realise that on the layout plan I have drawn it over the tracks, but if you look at the sketch, it better suggests the arrangement I had in mind. 

[Dave John]

Well, cleanliness would be a good excuse for having a fireless engine as well. 

 

As for wagon tts and capstans, all good scratchbuilding fun.

 

 

[Hibelroad]

On 10/11/2020 at 14:57, Adam88 said:

 Who else remembers George Slater of Slater's Plastikard demonstrating on his stand at the old Manchester exhibition?  He invariably had a fag going with about an inch and a half of delicately poised ash.  It was stated on the bottle that you should never smoke while using the MEK solvent as it would turn into phosgene.  Apparently though it didn't do George much harm as he lasted well into his eighties or nineties and his lungs had already taken a beating after being gassed in the Great War.  In those days all the model shows were 'atmospheric' (carcinogenic?), very many well-known modellers would be seen smoking a pipe and sometimes sharing a bottle of claret.  One of my friends declares that railway modelling can be a very unhealthy hobby if you're not careful.  On the other hand the social and mental health benefits of being able to engage with like-minded folk via places such as this can be tremendous.

There is an advantage to smoking while using solvents. Many years I was assembling a kit using MEK and lit a fag. The inhaled smoke was vile, I stubbed out the fag, threw the packet in a drawer and never smoked again. Since then I have often wondered how George managed it, he must have had leather lungs. 

[Edwardian]

19 minutes ago, Dave John said:

Well, cleanliness would be a good excuse for having a fireless engine as well. 

 

As for wagon tts and capstans, all good scratchbuilding fun.

 

 

 

My thought was:

 

(i) Use the Hornby H&P Pecketts

(ii) Fireless locos were, I think, barely on the scene in Britain in the 1890s.  They are associated with flour mills.  H&P did not see the need for any at Reading in the 1890s-1900s, but I think did so later. 

(iii) In terms of track plan and operation, a phrase beloved of HM Forces sprang to mind: "Keep it simple, stupid"

[Regularity]

3 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

(ii) Fireless locos were, I think, barely on the scene in Britain in the 1890s.  They are associated with flour mills.  H&P did not see the need for any at Reading in the 1890s-1900s, but I think did so later. 

It is not the emission of steam which is a problem (otherwise fire less locos wouldn’t be allowed!) but the emission of smoke and embers. It is possible for the loco crew to attempt to minimise this risk - no open fire doors, no recent stoking of the fire, close the dampers, etc, to reduce the flow of air and hence amount of combustion, and also to use the cutoff appropriately.

[Caley Jim]

7 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

.....a phrase beloved of HM Forces sprang to mind: "Keep it simple, stupid"

Ah!  The KISS principle. Always my maxim in all aspects of modelling!

 

Jim

Edited November 13, 2020 by Caley Jim

[Regularity]

2 hours ago, petethemole said:

Carbon Terachloride is the solvent whose fumes turn to phosgene when burnt.  It was widely used as a liquid cement in the early days of plastic modelling, so Slater may well have been using that.  The fumes are toxic and carcinogenic even without heating.

There is a question of just how much would need to be inhaled over what period of time for it to cause irreparable damage, in this case to the liver: short exposure to very high concentrations, and medium term exposure to medium concentrations would be very dangerous, but possibly these small amounts of inhaled gas were not enough, even over time, and the liver could repair the damage.

For the avoidance of doubt, I am not advocating the use CCl4 in any environment, smoking or not, just pondering of why it didn’t harm George. (He may also have had a genetic predisposition to not be susceptible to cancer, for all we know.)

[rocor]

11 minutes ago, Caley Jim said:

Ah!  The KISS principle. Always my maxim in all aspects of modelling!

 

Jim

 

Indeed a worthy principle, regrettably it often is up against the desire to, 'Lets make it interesting'.