Ancient Triang EM2 not running?

[nathan70000]

Hi,

I recently purchased a Triang EM2, and it ran fine when I got it. However, today it has apparently given up the ghost.

I removed the body and found that two black and green wires that run from one bogey to the other had come out of their 'slot' on the motor bogey, so I suspect this is the problem. Is it just a case of soldering them back on? I'm not really an expert in the more mechanical side of railway modelling, so some assistance would be appreciated.

[nathan70000]

They had indeed been soldered on before. I don't think the wires are too short, whoever soldered them on previously just did a terrible job...thanks for the reassurance though, I was worried that it might have been something more serious.

Not being mechanically minded, I'm curious to know why the motor won't run with the wires not attached?

[Fat Controller]

My recollection of this type of bogie, which was also used in the Brush Type 2 and the EE Type 3 in the 1960s, was that it was 'self-contained', and carried its own (brass) pick-ups. These rubbed the back of the wheels. There are two possibilities as to the purpose of the two bits of wire:-

a previous owner had fitted pick-ups to the trailing bogie- if this is so, then traces of the pick-up should be evident.

the wires had been connected to the pantograph, perhaps via a switch that allowed a choice of track or overhead supply.

I would suggest starting from the bogie and working outwards to see where the fault lies. Touch a pair of wires from your controller to the motor brushes, and see if the motor turns. Before doing this, check that both arms of the steel brush springs have insulating sheathing (a bit of insulation stripped from a cable will do).

[nathan70000]

Fair enough, I thought it would have picked up electricity from the motor bogey itself but never find.

[skin_2]

I had one of these many years ago and it only picked up current from the motor bogie, and this was entirely through phosphor bronze strips rather than being wired as such. It sounds like it's been modified to pick up current additionally from the non-motor bogie, which is a good idea of course, although it originally had plastic wheels. As supplied there was a switch in the roof that enabled it to pick up current either from the track or from the overhead catenary through one of its pantographs. It may be worth checking the wiring to this, unless it's been removed of course. It's worth checking the pick ups on the motor bogie too of course.

Also a good idea to check the brushes and the connections to them. As I recall, there's a spring wire loop that keeps the brushes in place. One side is non-insulated and connects the chassis and one set of wheels to the brush, the other has an insulating sleeve and an addition small bit of bronze that fits on the inside of the brush and is connected to the insulated set of wheels. I hope this is a help.

 

Cheers Keith

[nathan70000]

Yes, it has definitely been modified to pick up from the other bogey. All the wiring to the switch on the roof has been removed.

The loco worked fine until the wires connecting the motor bogey to the trailing bogey came out, I don't think there is anything wrong with the motor as such.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

There's a major weakness in the continuity of the current path on the non-insulated side of the motor bogie, which is probably why extra pick ups were added.

 

If you look at the pick up construction as already described by Keith in post 7, you will see there are two formed strips of phosphor bronze which form the pick up wipers and 'wiring' as an integral piece. For the brush which is sprung by the bare wire, the current path is from the pick up wiper strip via a static contact secured by the slotted head nut, (which is also the bogie pivot) and then down the wire spring to the brush. Lost count on this design of how many times I have found no conduction between the pick up wiper and the brush; and the motor therefore not running; usually corrosion insulating the static contact from the pick up strip or the wire spring (or both!).

 

Why this way when the other side the brush pivot simply bears on a formed piece of the pick up wiper strip, a much superior arrangement, because the slight movement of the brush on the commutator 'works' the contact point at the pivot maintaining good contact. Had they simply done that both sides it would be far more reliable.

[nathan70000]

In that case, I wonder if the pickups on the motor bogey are shot and the reason it doesn't work is that it was only picking up from the trailing bogey in the first place.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

That's the probable implication. You already know the motor is a runner if it gets power.

 

A visual inspection will confirm that the pick up wipers are present and bearing on the wheel backs. If they are then it is just a matter of ensuring continuity from the wiper strips to their respective brushes to enable operation.

[roythebus]

The original pick-ups may have just worn out over the years!

[Il Grifone]

There are plenty of bits available on eBay for the motor bogie (only the EM2 specific parts are hard to find). The Tri-ang Class 31 shares the motor bogie (only the frame casting is different). The bogie pickups are phosphor bronze strips (S.3283), which bear on the backs of the wheels - These tend to wear out or just pick up muck. Previous attempts to correct poor pick up may have resulted in them being bent out of shape or broken. Overheating may have melted the plastic brush holder (S.5452), which would then require replacement. (These parts are quite easy to obtain.) Later versions of the model had pickups added to the trailing bogie each bearing on one axle and then joined to the power bogie through wires. The wires tend to fall of the contact strips - they are only crimped on repair is tricky as any attempt to solder melts the plastic of the bogie frame. As previously mentioned, the EM2 has provision for pickup from the pantographs though a switch.

 

This is probably useful :-

 

http://www.hornbyguide.com/service_sheet_details.asp?sheetid=131

[nathan70000]

The pickups on the motor bogey appear clean, but they seem to be contacting the top of the wheels and not behind the wheels. If I adjust them to contact behind the wheels, will they work?

[Fat Controller]

The pickups on the motor bogey appear clean, but they seem to be contacting the top of the wheels and not behind the wheels. If I adjust them to contact behind the wheels, will they work?

They should do; however, be aware that the metal they're made of 'work hardens' and so might snap.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

The pickups on the motor bogey appear clean, but they seem to be contacting the top of the wheels and not behind the wheels. If I adjust them to contact behind the wheels, will they work?

Take the baseplate off, four screws, take out a wheelset in turn, squeeze the wipers inwards gently, then replace the wheelset so that they bear on the wheelbacks. If there is any hair, fluff or other contamination present a clean-up is a good plan. It may take a few minutes running for the wiper tip and wheel back track to polish up enough to get reliable pick up.

[Fat Controller]

If the end bits have worn away, it might be worth soldering some nickel-silver wire to what's left, to give a new pick-up.

[andyman7]

The motor bogie pickups should indeed bear on to the back of the wheels. They do wear out, and whilst replacements can be sought from ebay, I've also in the past repaired them by trimming back the worn pickup and soldering a new strip of bronze. These old motor bogies have unlimited scope for bodging mods which is both good and bad - good in the sense that they can keep going and bad in the sense that when this sort of question is asked, it can be very hard to work out what has previously been done in the way of modifying the original mechanism.

 

The Triang EM2 was produced without any wires soldered to the bogie, indeed the only wire at all was under the roof to connect the pantographs to a brass clip that bore down on to the top of the motor bogie, which engaged with the roof switch to allow changeover from pantograph to track power. It sounds like this whole gubbins has been replaced by a home made track only pickup arrangement.  

[Pandora]

If you have to perform a full strip of the motor bogie, be warned the magnet will die a death if you omit a magnetic keeper during dis assembly / reassembly.  (see service sheet )

[stewartingram]

And I have a remagnetiser if you want it reviving?

 

Stewart

[nathan70000]

Well, I soldered the wires back on but in the process managed to melt part of the underframe! To add insult to injury, it still doesn't work. "Oops" doesn't begin to cover it.

 

A new motor bogey and frame has been ordered off the eBay, it will be reverting to it's original Triang configuration with only the motor bogey picking up, me thinks. I've now spent over £110 on the darned thing, seriously regretting not just handing over the £165 for the Heljan version...

[andyman7]

If you have to perform a full strip of the motor bogie, be warned the magnet will die a death if you omit a magnetic keeper during dis assembly / reassembly.  (see service sheet )

In my experience the Triang magnets survived pretty well even if removed without a keeper - not that I'm recommending it, I'm just recalling the exploits if my callow youth.....

[Clive Mortimore]

Well, I soldered the wires back on but in the process managed to melt part of the underframe! To add insult to injury, it still doesn't work. "Oops" doesn't begin to cover it.

 

A new motor bogey and frame has been ordered off the eBay, it will be reverting to it's original Triang configuration with only the motor bogey picking up, me thinks. I've now spent over £110 on the darned thing, seriously regretting not just handing over the £165 for the Heljan version...

Hi Nathan

 

Can you post a photo of each side of the power bogie and one from the top. Otherwise we are guessing what the problem is.

[Il Grifone]

Are you seriously saying that magnets loose their magnetism when not mounted in a particular way?

 

If so, I'd suggest finding some better decent quality magnets

 

Only neodymium magnets retain their full magnetism if the magnetic circuit is broken. These are available for Tri-ang motors, but the original is quite adequate. Tri-ang themselves stated that " There is plenty left, but it's a pity to lose any of the motor's performance." *

 

* Or words to that effect - I've long since lost my copy of 'Tri-ang Railways The First Ten Years' from which the quote comes.

[nathan70000]

Panic averted! Turns out the motor was actually fine, the brass piece that secures it on to the body was bent preventing the motor from picking up off the rails. D'uh! 

Here's a photo of 27006 in all her electric blue glory-

[sagaguy]

Nice one,this is my recent purchase,a blue Electra,which i repainted & lined as Pandora.

 

                         Ray.

 

                             

[nathan70000]

That's a very impressive job sagaguy. Hopefully one day I'll have an EM1 or two, as I plan to model at least part of my layout after the western end of the Woodhead Tunnel, I have already sourced a suitable signalbox.

I'm currently bidding on a spare bodyshell on eBay, with the intention of repainting it in it's latter day Nederlandse Spoorvagen livery, plonking some cheap Hornby Class 86 pantographs on it putting it on the old (slightly melted but not unrepairable) frame and newly repaired motor.