garygfletcher Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 I'm now seriously thinking about the baseboard construction of my layout - which I hope may well see a exhibition in its time, so portability will be a key factor. I'll probably even take this smaller boards from place to place to work on also, home/workshop/club etc fairly often. My knowledge on baseboard construction is incredibly limited but I do have access to a full carpentry workshop and humungous laser cutter if required. the layout size (initially, I hope this will grow as time goes on) is 12.5ft x 4ft - I think I would have liked to have gone wider but at this point it seems silly to exceed the standard 4ft width of most wood materials, maybe later I will bolt on the sides too My initial thoughts are of using: 4ft x 2.5ft (tall building structure) 4ft x 2.5ft (half roof structure) 4ft x 2.5ft (half roof structure) 4ft x 2.5ft (station exit) I am thinking about using 5mm grade BB birch plywood - probably from here http://www.slecuk.com/balsa-wood/5.0-x-1220-x-1220mm--3-16--x-48--x-48---PW2506.html So a few questions - 1) is 5mm thick enough? Could I go thinner/lighter? 2) what is considered the best method of aligning/joining baseboards together? 3) of this lightweight construction what are the best methods of strengthening/reinforcement? 4) has anyone got any references to designs they have used themselves for 2mm layouts in particular? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorkshire Square Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 Gary, these two blogs might help: http://neag.2mm.org.uk/2008/08/brafferton-update-7-baseboards-pt-i.html http://neag.2mm.org.uk/2008/08/brafferton-update-8-baseboards-pt-ii.html 4ft wide seems pretty big for 2mm scale especially if each board is only 2 1/2ft long. Will the trackwork cover all four foot, or could you make narrower track boards and cantilever scenic boards off them? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Ian Morgan Posted June 7, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 7, 2016 Baseboards can be constructed in so many ways, and it is always a trade-off between weight, strength and rigidity. Using zig-zag cross members to form triangles helps with rigidity, but flexible baseboards need flexible scenery. Check out the many blogs, and see what materials you can source and are happy to work with. Baseboard size will also depend on how you intend to transport it. Most estate cars will take about 5 foot length, but height can be a problem, with sloping seats and rear doors. If you intend to hire a van, space is less of a problem, but some sort of stacking system may be required to protect the boards in transit. I tend to go for the longest possible baseboards as it reduces the number of joins required. You also need to think about legs, lighting gantries, or whatever, as these will also affect your design, and measurements. It is much harder to add these things on afterwards than design them in from the start. For baseboard joins, locating dowels (brass or steel) such as those produced by the EM gauge society, are good, and a couple of large bolts with butterfly nuts and washers to hold them together are a good option. It is best to clamp the ends of two boards together and drill the holes for the dowels and bolts with a pillar drill before assembly, but I expect laser cutting will provide the same accuracy. I have been involved with layouts where different sized nuts and bolts are used everywhere, and that can be a nightmare, so standardise if possible, and carry spares, as it will may life simpler for inexperienced helpers. So, a few points for you to think about, rather than suggestions of how you should do it - it is your layout after all. Ian Hampshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorkshire Square Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 It's worth noting that Association member Edward Sissling does a range of baseboard fittings through his ironmongery business:http://www.acsissling.comEspecially useful are the bolts with big plastic knobs to be used in conjunction with captive nuts to give easy but strong joins between boards. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnBS Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 Gary, That is quite a big layout. Obviously, the design of its construction is very dependent on the track plan. In my case, Totnes is roughly the same size - about 3m by 2m - and is basically a double track oval with branches off and a fiddle yard on the rear long face. I used 4mm birch ply throughout (lovely stuff - you can cut parallel strips with a carpenters scribing block) and with 9mm MDF track bed and board joint reinforcements. The whole has four track scenic boards and two fiddle yard boards - six in all - then two infill scenic boards. Generally, boards were set out in matching pairs, transported face-to-face with end protection boards. Construction is a perimeter frame (height as required) and 75mm deep cross members at about 240mm centres and notched to take a 50mm deep spline beam under the track centreline. I think that the latter is important to avoid track undulations over cross beams or board joints. A bay in each board is braced with a 75mm deep diagonal member. All exposed edges of the 4mm ply perimeter were stiffened with glued 10mm square strip wood and joints were reinforced with 10mm triangular strip to increase the glued area. Baseboard joints were located by pairs of 75mm loose-pin butts and fixed with M8 bolts with washers and wing nuts. I think that dowels and bolts with captive nuts would be an excellent alternative. I made the support structure as a box for all the ancillary bits (power supply, lighting, tools) with multiple fold-out hinged doors so that it opens to form a large U-shaped structure which the layout sits on. I hope that this helps - reply if you have any queries. Best wishes, John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 I don't have much to add but you mention a laser cutter so thought it might be worth mentioning that the adhesives in many standard plywood (and other manufactured timber) grades isn't very nice to the laser optics. It usually cuts ok but can give off very thick smoke which is sometimes unhealthy and can create quite a bit of work for whoever services the machine because it can gum up the mirrors and lenses. I recommend that, if you are going to use the laser, that you check your material choice with the owner because they might have an opinion. Laser-friendly plywood is available (e.g. from HPC laser) but it is a bit more expensive than normal panels. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Donw Posted June 9, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 9, 2016 Gary I tend to use 4mm or 6mm exterior grade ply bought from a builders merchant rather than a DIY store like B&Q what I do find necessary is some diagonal bracing for portable baseboard. The bracing will stop the board twisting These three show a small board about 42 ins long for a 2mm layout it is still flat despite having been stored in a damp garage and moved home twice (hence no progress) This shows the underside of a larger board 4ftx2ft6 max for an 0 gauge layout These show a larger approx 6ft long board for a loft layout non portable all done with thin ply and small timber sections (about 32x14mm or 20x20max) I find MDF is rather heavy stuff to use and not so pleasant to work. for a portable layout I believe the board should be light enough to hold in one hand (even with all the scenics track and buildings on) this means you can hold a door open with one hand while holding the baseboard in the other. Don Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Hall Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 I'm toying with the idea of having some aluminium frames made up, with plywood tops attached to them with countersunk bolts. The idea is that the frames will be reusable (assuming all my layouts are the same size...), light and easy to carry, won't warp and will provide 100% accurate alignment at the joins. Being in the motor trade I'm happier working with metal than wood anyway, but I don't have the equipment to weld aluminium so I'll have to get someone else to do it for me. I could do them in Dexion angle steel (got tons of the stuff) but they would be a bit heavy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Higgs Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 Gary, these two blogs might help: http://neag.2mm.org.uk/2008/08/brafferton-update-7-baseboards-pt-i.html http://neag.2mm.org.uk/2008/08/brafferton-update-8-baseboards-pt-ii.html 4ft wide seems pretty big for 2mm scale especially if each board is only 2 1/2ft long. Will the trackwork cover all four foot, or could you make narrower track boards and cantilever scenic boards off them? I think you'll find it's St Pancras... Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorkshire Square Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 I think you'll find it's St Pancras... Chris Won't the trains be a bit hidden? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
garygfletcher Posted June 10, 2016 Author Share Posted June 10, 2016 Won't the trains be a bit hidden? I'll know they are there Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
garygfletcher Posted June 10, 2016 Author Share Posted June 10, 2016 I don't have much to add but you mention a laser cutter so thought it might be worth mentioning that the adhesives in many standard plywood (and other manufactured timber) grades isn't very nice to the laser optics. It usually cuts ok but can give off very thick smoke which is sometimes unhealthy and can create quite a bit of work for whoever services the machine because it can gum up the mirrors and lenses. I recommend that, if you are going to use the laser, that you check your material choice with the owner because they might have an opinion. Laser-friendly plywood is available (e.g. from HPC laser) but it is a bit more expensive than normal panels. I have used HPC, Slec, KitTronic etc But I have massive air assist + nitrogen injection so smoke is rarely an issue. I'm also lucky enough to have a chap so obsessed by lasers cleaning and maintenance isn't an issue - he makes these for fun! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
garygfletcher Posted June 10, 2016 Author Share Posted June 10, 2016 It's worth noting that Association member Edward Sissling does a range of baseboard fittings through his ironmongery business: http://www.acsissling.com Especially useful are the bolts with big plastic knobs to be used in conjunction with captive nuts to give easy but strong joins between boards. I really liked the idea of Ali frames and I am going to explore this a little more, but Edwards site is pretty much self service and I could have done with a little more help - there were a LOT of options and its something I just couldn't get a "feel" for online. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Ian Morgan Posted June 10, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 10, 2016 Edward is showing the framework for his new layout part way down this page: http://neag.2mm.org.uk/2016/06/neag-meeting-update.html Click on the photo to expand. I am sure Edward would be happy to discuss what you need by email or telephone. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
garygfletcher Posted June 10, 2016 Author Share Posted June 10, 2016 Edward is showing the framework for his new layout part way down this page: http://neag.2mm.org.uk/2016/06/neag-meeting-update.html Click on the photo to expand. I am sure Edward would be happy to discuss what you need by email or telephone. That is useful, thanks for posting the images. Edward did email me the link to the frames, but I never got a reply to frame thickness, bracing recommendations and if feet every 5ft would be adequate - I'd want to be in a position where I can place an order and not pay for freight twice because I'm experimenting and thats the only thing holding me up at the moment because it does look good. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
2mm Andy Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 That is useful, thanks for posting the images. Edward did email me the link to the frames, but I never got a reply to frame thickness, bracing recommendations and if feet every 5ft would be adequate - I'd want to be in a position where I can place an order and not pay for freight twice because I'm experimenting and thats the only thing holding me up at the moment because it does look good. Gary, I don't know if you're able to come to the 2mm Supermeet at Tutbury, but Edward will have a trade stand there. Might be a good opportunity to chat face to face about the baseboard system. I'm not sure if he'll have any of the Combitech components available, but he might possibly be willing to bring advance orders with him. Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
garygfletcher Posted June 10, 2016 Author Share Posted June 10, 2016 Gary, I don't know if you're able to come to the 2mm Supermeet at Tutbury, but Edward will have a trade stand there. Might be a good opportunity to chat face to face about the baseboard system. I'm not sure if he'll have any of the Combitech components available, but he might possibly be willing to bring advance orders with him. Andy That's a brilliant idea, Thanks Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium CF MRC Posted June 11, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 11, 2016 Gary, I would have a word with Mike Randall regarding baseboard design. As we discussed ages ago, the beer cellars and under track infrastructure could make quite a major contribution to the rigidity of the overall structure (as most of St P is well above street level). 5mm ply is more than stiff enough, if you use box-type construction, especially with a top and bottom skin, which can be designed to be laser cut and fit together easily. I am a great believer in heavily engineered baseboard joints, aligning over a significant distance. They have worked well on CF for 30+ years. We could met at Keen House Thursday 16th and look at the CF boards. Tim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Hall Posted June 11, 2016 Share Posted June 11, 2016 I decided to go ahead with the welded steel baseboard frames just to see what happened. They came out at 7.5kg each including MDF tops, which is light enough to be portable but still heavy enough to be awkward. And Dexion angle is a rubbish material for baseboard construction. The two faces aren't actually at 90 degrees to each other - presumably the stuff started at right angles then distorted when they punched the holes in it. I also got localised distortion from the welding process. I have ended up with usable baseboards, but I wouldn't recommend them. So... on a long car journey this morning I started thinking about bonded aluminium. 3 x 1 extruded angle sides and ends, 2 inch square tube in the corners to take the supporting legs, all bonded together with Sikaflex 552 (specialist adhesive normally used for attaching panels to bus bodies), assembled on a flat surface and held together with mitre clamps until the adhesive cures. Then the top bonded to the frame with Tiger Seal or similar (I used this on the steel framed boards and it seems to have worked beautifully). The main problem is the intermediate cross bearers - Sikaflex only really bonds properly over a fairly large area, and I'm not sure that even I-section aluminium glued to the sides end-on will be strong enough. I need to build a 3 x 2 board for my little test oval, so I might give this method a try. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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