Shapeways "variant" system for shops: too dangerous to use!

[Guy Rixon]

Today, I received an email from Shapeways, suggesting that I group related products in my shop using their new "variant" system. This allows products at different scales to be grouped into one product-page, and it understands model-railway scales! Sounds perfect, but...

 

The system for setting up the variants is ridiculously broken and can ruin your shop. Don't use it!

 

[EDIT 2016-09-06: after the help given further down this thread, I find that it is possible to set up the variants without damage, once one knows the trick of the controls. So the system isn't as broken as I thought, but it is still possible to get in a mess, and one should be very careful that the right models get mapped to each product.]

 

I'm currently in a situation where the 4mm-scale and H0-scale versions of one model are confused and if somebody tries to buy the 4mm version, it sells them the H0 version silently. This is a ghastly mistake and I've had to take the product, in both scales, off sale. I've taken the matter up with Shapeways support. Until they can make it work sensibly,  I suggest that nobody else even consider using this garbage in their own shop.

[SpoorObjecten]

Can you elaborate a bit more and send an email with details to mitchell@shapeways.com

I'll be happy to have a look.

 

I have been testing Variants for the last month and have had none such issue you're referring too.

(see my example model: http://shpws.me/MtH4 )

 

Are you sure you've marked the right MODELS on the PRODUCT page?

[Guy Rixon]

The point is, I cannot mark the right models on the product page because I have to select them from a list and the list does not contain all the models.

 

When I am adding a 1:87 variant to a product that already has a 1:76.2 variant, then the list starts with the 1:76.2 model and then has 10 of my other models that aren't relevant. It doesn't have the one model that could satisfy the 1:87 variant. And yes, the necessary model is in the shop already and I can see it.

[SpoorObjecten]

Hi Guy,

 

The moment you click on the drop down menu to find the "right" model in the list, you can just type the model you are looking for.

Right now it will only show the most recently uploaded models, but it allows you to search for the older ones as well

[Guy Rixon]

Hi Guy,

 

The moment you click on the drop down menu to find the "right" model in the list, you can just type the model you are looking for.

Right now it will only show the most recently uploaded models, but it allows you to search for the older ones as well

 

 

How would I search? I see no local controls for search in that part of the page. Also, no text box where I can type. 

[Guy Rixon]

How would I search? I see no local controls for search in that part of the page. Also, no text box where I can type. 

 

OK, I now see that I can type over the selected entry in the drop-down menu; I'd never have realized that if you hadn't suggested it, because it looks nothing like a text-entry box.  No sign of the search function, but I can manage without that and I can complete the merged pages. Thanks for your help.

[SpoorObjecten]

And we thank you for your help, we'll look for an improvement on the search function,

Thanks to your feedback we see that it's not really intuitive

 

Cheers,

Mitchell

[rue_d_etropal]

I would now not even attempt to use anything like this. I have had problems with search tool, I suspect because it has been designed for small shops, not ones like mine, and it times out too quickly(a standard failsafe that has been in these search and display systems for over 30 years-we were using them then, but some bight spark decided to introduce different names and terms, to make it look newer).

It would be a mamouth task, but only way to reorganise along the variant idea, would be to regenerate the whole database, and that is not going to happen. Not only would it be a huge task, but it probably would do more harm than good. Better to leave the Shapeways system as a simple source database, and create your own front end to display your models in the way you want them.My system is clunky, but it works. I find it very useful for maintenance, and hope others can find items easier. The main downside is not displaying prices, and if Shapeways were to introduce a simple way to extract this data(not the clunky spreadsheet) then it would be possible to add prices to my website.

Given the way Shapeways have introduced changes, I think it is more in response to requests from people who don't understand how IT systems work, or think they do because they can spout the words but don't actually know what they are talking about.

[Knuckles]

I have been interested in varients as I would like to streamline the SCC outlet and also I already have quite a few 'Freelance Variants' for a few projects. I also would like to make options for each engine such as cab splasher widths to suit different gauges rather than them all being obese and cab restricting to satisfy 00 but as I have read here and on Shapeways of issues maybe it is best for the blow over.

 

I have found Shapeways' tools to be awkward to edit from the start in many different ways so think I'll be giving this a miss for a bit.

 

Being able to rename and create our own catagories would be good too.

[rue_d_etropal]

This type of discussion is useful. I only noticed the variant option today when I was updating something. It was very unclear what it actually did. IfI was resigning the database I would be creating a whole new level of indexing, which did not affect anything on the database itself. Alternative indexes used to be common when I worked in IT, even enabling files to be read backwards!

It is also making me more certain about getting a group of us designers together to market our products. It might be possible to share development of websites , but more importantly I think it is best way to get 3D printing on show at exhibitions. I know people who can help with business setup, as I have been involved in setting up one local cooperative, and it would be important to get everything set up properly.

[Knuckles]

You've mentioned this before so I guess it is an important thing for you. I would only be able to attend exhabitions on Sunday though so I guess that rules me out - it usually does.

[rue_d_etropal]

Yes I have mentioned it before, I would hope that it not be down to one person at an exhibition,  so only being able to do Sunday would not rule anyone out. In the same way any member of a model railway club might be limited to certain days. I have sent an email to RM, so hopefully might get more interest.

3D printing is the future, but like anyone trying to get something going, exhibitions are not cheap, so spreading cost between a group of people helps.

Thing is, it is not only important to me , but to the hobby. This year we have lost a few wellknown people in the hobby, and some small businesses have disappeared(one a well known 3D print designer). 3D printing is getting a lot of interest, but I do wonder why people are not out there promoting it. Despite what some here might think, this forum  is not the centre of the universe, and most people in the hobby don't read it.

[Knuckles]

The fact I can only attend exhabitions on Sunday will mean to most managers I'm a lost cause only having a trade stand or exhabition on one day instead of two - this is my issue I see no workaround with.

 

Also as for promoting I plan to go to the mainstream model railway magazines at some point with SCC but not until the E1/Cambrian multi kit is done and I have a few more items completed and perfected. Want to get everything as ready as possible first. I'm also unsure whether to get a front end website made as at some point I aim to print (maybe cast too) and etch things and sell them apart from Shapeways as I want to get prices down as they in my opinion currently are OTT.

 

I'm unsure what a 3DP stand would do but I guess if we exhibited our loco's and buildings there it may generate some interest. The current prices are often a problem though - this is one of the biggest issues as I see it as people will compare to RTR. I know we have been over this before and I know the point has been raised that 3DP is not RTR and so it should not be compared but fact is it will be and is compared so we have no choice but to accept it is a factor that ties in.

 

It isn't as bad for those who build kits though as they already have an jdea what to do and as 3DP already does a lot towards the finished model hopefully that will be seen as an advantage by some.

[Maxwill]

As a punter looking for specific items, I find the system lacking in continuity. Two days ago I wanted to see if there were some oo gauge, 4mm scale items that I would like to put/use on my layout. With nearly 500 pages in that category the time spent reading just 30 pages showing very few interesting items I gave up after several hours. Many were the wrong scale namely N gauge or HO items although some were very good, they were not of use to me. David

[Knuckles]

I've found Shapeways' search function to be the same.

Flicked through 50 pages in one hit once.

 

Nothing we can do about it though currently. Most on there do H0 or N so I agree there is a lack of 4mm stuff currently.

 

It is anoying finding scales you didn't search for but there you go. :/

[SpoorObjecten]

We are exploring things that that will tackle this Give us some time and we'll have a better marketplace that allows you to filter down on scales.

[Knuckles]

We are exploring things that that will tackle this Give us some time and we'll have a better marketplace that allows you to filter down on scales.

Is it possible to give catagories your own name and upload several models into one product so that in a way extra variants can visually be streamlined? Basically you click on a product and in the page there are 3 or whatever choices of whatever design I upload into it. If so I can use it.

[SpoorObjecten]

With categories, i assume you mean Variants?

 

Having customized variants instead of the ones we offer now? (scale, size, ring size)?

If so, it's on our radar but I don't have an ETA on it, not sure how high that prioritization is.

[Knuckles]

Yeah. Those options you launched with are useless for me. No offense intended!

I (and no doubt others) need to make use of variants in the sense that we upload the model variants and label the changes up ourselves.

I have a lot of variants already as seperate uploads. Having the variant uploads organized in the variant section would help streamline things. The other development I want to do is provide Splashers (Wheel Arches) on the loco's at the correct distance for the gauge as currently everything as usual is set to 00 but it means the cab space is cramped more than it needs to be for EM and P4 and the crew have two coffins in the way!

I could upload splasher variants now but it would make everything more confusing than it already is with so many different versions of things.

 

NOTE:   If anyone wants me to do this for them as a special let me know, please only request it if you fully intend to buy it though as I have done a few requests for people and then they have decided not to.  You can work out various reasons why this is undesirable!

[SpoorObjecten]

The more examples you have why custom variants would be useful, the better

This way we can share it with the product team who are responsible for variants and hopefully convince them to bump the priority

[SpoorObjecten]

Hi all!

 

Just a quick comment for those who are unsatisfied with the current selection of Variant Types (size, scale, ring size, etc.) - if you would like to see a Variant Type which isn't currently in the list - please send an email to variants@shapeways.com letting us know what Variant Type you would like added.

 

There are two reasons we haven't allowed free-form entry of Variant Types.

 

The first is for consistency across the platform for Shoppers - if each designer comes up with a slightly different way of naming a Variant Type - i.e. one calls it 'Ring Size' and another 'Size' and a third 'US Ring Size' when they all are actually referring to the same measurement - we will make it hard for shoppers to have confidence they're comparing apples to apples when browsing different products.

 

The second reason is that we are about to do a whole bunch of very exciting work around search facets in the market place to make it easier for shoppers and makers to search for specific products by facet - e.g. by scale, phone model. In order to facilitate that search functionality we need to have consistency of naming for Variant Types to make it possible for us to recognize exactly which products have specific sizes, scales or other facets.

 

If you have any questions about this or don't get a response from variants@shapeways.com - please post a message here or message me directly.

 

Thanks!

 

Hunter

[rue_d_etropal]

Hunter,

glad to see you posting here. It sounds like you are trying to add functionality, but there are base problems with the database which really need resolving first. The variant idea looks like an alternative index to me, which is OK. It should work ,so if some have had problems then that concerns me.One of bugs to me has been inability to set up sub categories, or even change names of categories. This is not a problem for most people with small shops but for those like myself with a big range, it is difficult. My work around has been to create my own front end website. Another reason for doing this was that I was having problems with the 'my models' page, which quite often returned zero results, when I knew something was there. I have been careful to use a naming standard to make it easier to identify items, and the zero found result suggests a timeout to me.

For new ideas one that would be very useful , is to have a function to create a pdf catalogue of items, with pictures and prices.The downloadable spreadsheet is very basic, and requires a lot of modification to make it useful as a catalogue. I attend exhibitions, and there is often no internet access, so need something I can show people. for me far more useful than adding variants etc, especially as it s difficult to find some of the update/selection pages on the sShapeways website. 

[JCL]

Thanks for that Hunter. I've sent an email off. I'm hoping to be able to vary the number of items in a model. For example, I have fence posts that come in packs of 10,20, etc, and benches in 2, 3, 4. I've seen lots of others selling buffers, lamps, etc. It would be good if a buyer could click on benches and be redirected to the pack containing the number of benches they want.

[rue_d_etropal]

I wonder how much in with different quantities, especially when there is not much of a saving buying larger quantity.

And then is there a need for being able to search by quantity?. If I am searching for someting I tend to search for the item not the quantity.

Not sure how many actually think about naming of their items. A simple bit of thought and standardisation within an individuals own shop can make it easier to search by size or scale. I use track gauge and scale as part of my naming standard.eg a loco body in 1/76 could be called A-76-loco1, and the same dsign in O scale A-43-loco1.For track related items, then B-165-track-item1 refers to 16.5mm gauge and B-32-track-item1 is same item for 32mm gauge(I nmight further enghance this to differentiate between narrow gauge and stadard gauge.

I suppose if the variant system was used in a way so that all O scale models by different designers could be found, but even then I often find items that I might consider buying, but wrong scale, and it is common to ask designers if they can do a model in a different scale. That is possibly one of the biggest advantages of 3D printing. We can even experiment in modelling slightly different scales, and not be restricted by what r2r and kit manufacturers offer.

[JCL]

Hi Simon,

 

I don't think people will search based on quantity (I never have), but it would be good to have all quantity options available when clicking on an item. I do notice from the emails that people buy in different quantities as there is no point buying 60 railing posts when you only need 20 of them, even if price per post is lower when you buy 60. I tend to use 00 gauge, 1:76 and 4mm scale in my tags to cover all eventualities for that scale. From what I've read (and I'm happy to be corrected), it's the tags that are used to categorise the HO grouping, etc.

 

Having seen your shop, and bought from you, you are the other end of the scale to me, as you have many more models than I'll ever have. In your case, naming standards would be much more important than mine. That said, I do put the scale and company name in the model name.

 

cheers

 

Jason