Hornby Dublo 2-6-4 chassis

[snowy1051]

Hello, earlier this year I acquired a kit built Stanier 3 cylinder 2-6-4T on an HD chassis with scale wheels. I must say that it really is well built and looks very nice. Tho' recently it has started to show signs of its age. It is not as quick off the mark, occasionally needs a gentle tap to get going and there is a slight sort of "grating" noise as it runs forward but is still sewing machine like in reverse. I've just managed to separate the body from the chassis ( quite a tight fit!) and cleaned the commutator slots and looked at the bushes. The forward one is showing about 1mm and the rear one a little more. As I live in Southern Alberta, getting HD spares is generally a cross the Atlantic job. Can some kind person please advise me on the servicing of this chassis, what I need to take apart and clean etc. I must add that this is the first time I have had an HD chassis undressed and upside down in my cradle, so I'm all ears. Also, as this loco doesn't sit too well with my East Worcestershire stud of 21A and a few WR locos, I'm open to offers, even a swap, I'm after another 2-6-4T that would have seen time at Saltley. I would be so very grateful for any servicing tips re this chassis. Thank you. Gordon. 

[vitalspark]

Its a fairly basic chassis and built like a tank but it does have its shortcomings when it starts to age.

 

Its a very old fashioned motor that takes a lot of current which might be a problem with modern controllers but I take it thats not the issue.

 

Loss of magnetism can be another issue and there are companies that specialise in remagnetising.

 

Symptoms of this are usually unwilling to run at higher speed so if it runs ok and has a normal top speed..ie quite fast..then don't dismantle the motor.

 

The brushes should be ok as long as they are in contact with the com and acting on same with a little pressure.

 

Take them out of the brush holders and check the springs are both in order and acting on the brushes and replace and watch as the make contact.

 

The top bearing should have some end float but if its excessive this can be adjusted but don't overdo it..better too much float than too little.

 

It may have a felt lubricating pad round this and if so then keep it well oiled.

 

The grating noise in one direction sounds like a gear meshing issue.

 

Does the vertical gear and worm look undamaged?

 

Turn the motor by hand and feel if theres more resistance in one direction.

 

If so watch for a high spot ..does it go over the top and free up only to tighten again next revolution?

 

The brass worm is from memory fitted to the axle by grub screw and should be available as a spare.

 

If you are in doubt I would change it but count the teeth and make sure the replacement is the same.

 

Is there any wear on the valve gear?

 

Do the crossheads slide on the cylinder slide bars easy in both directions?

 

Could be wear on a rivet allowing the motion to bind a bit one way.

 

You mentioned it had scale wheels and given its age I would assume Romfords so dismantling should be easy and quartering guaranteed.

 

Valve gear must have been replaced as original wouldn't sit well on scale wheels.

 

Check as said the rivets or tiny BA screws used are all true and not allowing any fouling.

 

Theres nothing else I can think of..pity your other side of the pond as I am sure I have a few of these chassis in the depths of the workshop which might have been useful for

 

spares.

 

All the best

 

Dave. 

[Jenny Emily]

The best thing I always found with Hornby Dublo chassis was plenty of oil on the moving parts, but make sure any applied to the top bearing does not run down onto the brushes/commutator as it will turn the brushes soft and gooey and clog up the commutator gaps with a carbon mush. New brushes certainly used to be able to be acquired as spares - all my Father's came through Dennis Williams aka 'The Dublo surgeon' IIRC. They are small enough that postage abroad shouldn't be too much of an issue.

 

Loss of magnetism can be a big issue. I think new magnets made of some super-duper space age alloy are available, or alternatively remagnetise the old ones. I was always told to never separate the two side pieces and the block as pulling them apart weakens the magnetism.

[vitalspark]

You'll probably be aware that the 3 cylinder Stanier tanks were built for the London Tilbury & Southend and unlikely to have visited Saltley.

 

The very similar 2 cylinder Stanier tanks were however around the shed from LMS days through to BR late crest.

 

I visited 21A in 1964/5 and have shed notes but cant lay my hands on them at the moment.

 

I haven't researched the differences or what would be required to convert the LT&S kit to the more common 2 cylinder loco but I don't think there is a great difference.

 

The slide bars and motion bracket on the 2 cylinder look heavier and obviously there will be no centre cylinder cover.

 

Apart from that and possibly some differences in minor boiler fittings it should be quite possible to adapt your kit and renumber it... always an option.

 

I'll probably get shot down for this but as said haven't researched and only suggesting after a quick look at pics.

 

Run for cover.

 

Theres a pic of 42436 on shed in later BR days on net.

 

Dave.

[DCB]

Don't lose the ball bearings out of the bearings if you remove the armature.    The H/D chassis benefit from a washers between the worm wheel and the chassis side to centralise the worm wheel with the worm.    The magnets can get weak and the super neo ones are a bit vicious.  One of mine has a ring field magnet from  Dublo Deltic.  It is a very sure footed beast, I don't think I have ever seen it slip yet it hauls 20 plus wagons with ease.

[snowy1051]

Don't lose the ball bearings out of the bearings if you remove the armature.    The H/D chassis benefit from a washers between the worm wheel and the chassis side to centralise the worm wheel with the worm.    The magnets can get weak and the super neo ones are a bit vicious.  One of mine has a ring field magnet from  Dublo Deltic.  It is a very sure footed beast, I don't think I have ever seen it slip yet it hauls 20 plus wagons with ease.

Thank you, I'm a little unsure about tackling this issue, but as it is such a good looking engine it needs to be running. Fingers crossed.

[snowy1051]

Its a fairly basic chassis and built like a tank but it does have its shortcomings when it starts to age.

 

Its a very old fashioned motor that takes a lot of current which might be a problem with modern controllers but I take it thats not the issue.

 

Loss of magnetism can be another issue and there are companies that specialise in remagnetising.

 

Symptoms of this are usually unwilling to run at higher speed so if it runs ok and has a normal top speed..ie quite fast..then don't dismantle the motor.

 

The brushes should be ok as long as they are in contact with the com and acting on same with a little pressure.

 

Take them out of the brush holders and check the springs are both in order and acting on the brushes and replace and watch as the make contact.

 

The top bearing should have some end float but if its excessive this can be adjusted but don't overdo it..better too much float than too little.

 

It may have a felt lubricating pad round this and if so then keep it well oiled.

 

The grating noise in one direction sounds like a gear meshing issue.

 

Does the vertical gear and worm look undamaged?

 

Turn the motor by hand and feel if theres more resistance in one direction.

 

If so watch for a high spot ..does it go over the top and free up only to tighten again next revolution?

 

The brass worm is from memory fitted to the axle by grub screw and should be available as a spare.

 

If you are in doubt I would change it but count the teeth and make sure the replacement is the same.

 

Is there any wear on the valve gear?

 

Do the crossheads slide on the cylinder slide bars easy in both directions?

 

Could be wear on a rivet allowing the motion to bind a bit one way.

 

You mentioned it had scale wheels and given its age I would assume Romfords so dismantling should be easy and quartering guaranteed.

 

Valve gear must have been replaced as original wouldn't sit well on scale wheels.

 

Check as said the rivets or tiny BA screws used are all true and not allowing any fouling.

 

Theres nothing else I can think of..pity your other side of the pond as I am sure I have a few of these chassis in the depths of the workshop which might have been useful for

 

spares.

 

All the best

 

Dave. 

Dave, thank you so much for all the info. I'll give it a go, would love to have it running nicely again. Thank you. 

[snowy1051]

You'll probably be aware that the 3 cylinder Stanier tanks were built for the London Tilbury & Southend and unlikely to have visited Saltley.

 

The very similar 2 cylinder Stanier tanks were however around the shed from LMS days through to BR late crest.

 

I visited 21A in 1964/5 and have shed notes but cant lay my hands on them at the moment.

 

I haven't researched the differences or what would be required to convert the LT&S kit to the more common 2 cylinder loco but I don't think there is a great difference.

 

The slide bars and motion bracket on the 2 cylinder look heavier and obviously there will be no centre cylinder cover.

 

Apart from that and possibly some differences in minor boiler fittings it should be quite possible to adapt your kit and renumber it... always an option.

 

I'll probably get shot down for this but as said haven't researched and only suggesting after a quick look at pics.

 

Run for cover.

 

Theres a pic of 42436 on shed in later BR days on net.

 

Dave.

Hello Dave, I think the main two differences between the 2 & 3 cylinder locos were the dome and cabsides. I have thought of converting it, but chopping away at them to remove the doors and create that curved aperture scares me a little. Tho' I reckon altering the dome/topfeed is doable. (is there such a word?). I well remember 42436 on the shed, I was a passed fireman there at the time and took more than one photo of her, she was on her way for cutting at, I believe, Cashmores of Great Bridge). (I will stand corrected if she went elsewhere). Like many others, I photographed 42500 on an open day at Derby Works after withdrawal, I guess being readied for preservation. Thank you again. Gordon. 

[snowy1051]

The best thing I always found with Hornby Dublo chassis was plenty of oil on the moving parts, but make sure any applied to the top bearing does not run down onto the brushes/commutator as it will turn the brushes soft and gooey and clog up the commutator gaps with a carbon mush. New brushes certainly used to be able to be acquired as spares - all my Father's came through Dennis Williams aka 'The Dublo surgeon' IIRC. They are small enough that postage abroad shouldn't be too much of an issue.

 

Loss of magnetism can be a big issue. I think new magnets made of some super-duper space age alloy are available, or alternatively remagnetise the old ones. I was always told to never separate the two side pieces and the block as pulling them apart weakens the magnetism.

Thank you Jenny, very useful info. 

[snowy1051]

Many thanks to all for the info. It has made me very nervous!    I don't mind oiling, but remagnetizing is something completely new to me, tho' I am aware it needs to be done, occasionally.

 

Wish me luck.  Gordon. 

[stewartingram]

Spares for HD locos are easily available. Too much oil is a killer, never use WD40 (a bodger's tool). I can do remags if you want at cost of postage. Never remove magnets without a keeper plate either, that is a sure way of losing magnetism. Make sure the armature slots are clean, and brushes/springs correctly tensioned.

 

Stewart

[snowy1051]

Thanks to all for the info. I oiled it and gave it a general clean up and now it runs like new, speedy (tho' not required on my 21' end to end layout) and no strange noises. Excellent. 

Now do I convert it to the 2 cylinder version?????       hum.................

[snowy1051]

Spares for HD locos are easily available. Too much oil is a killer, never use WD40 (a bodger's tool). I can do remags if you want at cost of postage. Never remove magnets without a keeper plate either, that is a sure way of losing magnetism. Make sure the armature slots are clean, and brushes/springs correctly tensioned.

 

Stewart

Thank you Stewart, advice noted. Gordon. 

[snowy1051]

Don't lose the ball bearings out of the bearings if you remove the armature.    The H/D chassis benefit from a washers between the worm wheel and the chassis side to centralise the worm wheel with the worm.    The magnets can get weak and the super neo ones are a bit vicious.  One of mine has a ring field magnet from  Dublo Deltic.  It is a very sure footed beast, I don't think I have ever seen it slip yet it hauls 20 plus wagons with ease.

Thank you David, happily I think I have been saved taking it all apart. Running well now. Hopefully we'll visit the UK next year, so shall try and pick some spares. Mine too, will pull a house down, Excellent locos.

[Jenny Emily]

It is possible to build your own magnetiser, and plans did circulate through the Hornby Railway Collectors' Association in the 1980s and 90s, and can be probably found these days on the internet. I built one for my secondary school CDT project in the 1990s, and it works but is a scary looking beast that is unwise to wear a wristwatch whilst using! It lives in my Father's garage and occasionally gets used in anger, but he swears it is responsible for magnetising all his screwdrivers whenever it is used.

[Londontram]

Wow look every one Jenny's built a Hadron collider in her dads garage.

 

  For goodness sake girl when I was at school my project was a wall paper scraper in metal work. So now if any black holes open anywhere near Bolton we know who to blame!

    

                                                 Steve

                                                

                                                      The end of the world is nigh

 

                                                                  Sorry Jenny I couldn't resist it

[vitalspark]

Hello Dave, I think the main two differences between the 2 & 3 cylinder locos were the dome and cabsides. I have thought of converting it, but chopping away at them to remove the doors and create that curved aperture scares me a little. Tho' I reckon altering the dome/topfeed is doable. (is there such a word?). I well remember 42436 on the shed, I was a passed fireman there at the time and took more than one photo of her, she was on her way for cutting at, I believe, Cashmores of Great Bridge). (I will stand corrected if she went elsewhere). Like many others, I photographed 42500 on an open day at Derby Works after withdrawal, I guess being readied for preservation. Thank you again. Gordon. 

 

Hi Gordon

You will know more than most of us on here about these locos.

Visited Saltley a few times as a 14 yr old but as we hailed from Glasgow it was weekend trips usually by the 23.25 from Glasgow to New St so not too often.

Saltley Aston and Tyseley were visited followed by Stafford Rd and Oxley reached via Snow Hill and usually the 'Inter City' for the short trip.

Well remember seeing my first Grange simmering quietly at the foot of the stairs as we entered Snow Hill.

Crewe North & South followed and sometimes Carnforth if time allowed..great memories and great days.

Sun always shined too!

 

I think if I had such a personal connection I would definitely be converting the 3 cylinder to one I had fired.

Don't go at it though until you've practised on an old body.

Try and pick up a scrap whitemetal body and after you've bodged filed and filled it you will have a better idea if you are happy and confident to tackle the real thing.

Remember though that regardless of the outcome and..I am sure it will likely be fine..its your model and something you have created and in that sense better than just another kit off the shelf..its what modelling is about.

Also research the domes and cabs because I thought they varied on different members of this class…always better working from a photo of the loco you want to create.

We all have early efforts that don't stand up to the rtr stuff available now but who cares ..theres no skill in buying the current highly detailed rtr models and I do regularly but although my new Bachmann Park Royal railbus is a thing of beauty I still appreciate my early effort of an Airfix/Dapol kit with home made brass chassis Branchlines interior and the excellent Hollywood Foundry drivetrain.

It might not stand a side by side comparison..but theres not another like it!

This is Ian Rices philosophy..have a read at Wright Writes.. and when he visited our exhibition layout the thing that he appreciated most was the number of unusual kit built locos.

Its a Scottish prototype so not too many off the shelf 0-6-0s that suit resulting in many kits some very well built others not quite so but that is not the point..they are all personal to their owners.

Also pick up some decent filler as you will need it and practice filling smoothing and sanding with wet & dry then priming and painting.

It will mend a shedload of mistakes if they happen and if your confident with that you will approach the surgery with more confidence.

Keep us posted.

 

Dave. 

[Il Grifone]

The top armature bearing of the 2-6-4T is supposed to be oil retaining  (Reservoil) and not require lubrication. At the time (1954) I suppose they weren't considering sixty years in the future however and a drop of thin oil certainly appears necessary now.

 

A 2-6-4T (with the original mazak body) in good order should be capable of a scale 100 mph with 4 HD coaches in tow and be able to pull 7 or 8 of them without slipping. Modern coaches with pinpoint bearings considerably more. (An HD coach should start to run on a 1 in 30 (33%) incline - rather stiff plain bearings and they are relatively heavy too.) Fitted with a heavy white metal kit body (the Wills kit I assume?) she should be almost unstoppable.

 

This chassis was fitted with an adjustable magnetic shunt behind the magnet, adjustable through a hole in the rear of the bunker. This was to improve the slow running, but is best removed (it it hasn't been already) - it provides a useful piece of phosphor bronze and a B.A. screw.

[snowy1051]

Hi Gordon

 

Visited Saltley a few times as a 14 yr old but as we hailed from Glasgow it was weekend trips usually by the 23.25 from Glasgow to New St so not too often.

Saltley Aston and Tyseley were visited followed by Stafford Rd and Oxley reached via Snow Hill and usually the 'Inter City' for the short trip.

Well remember seeing my first Grange simmering quietly at the foot of the stairs as we entered Snow Hill.

 

Keep us posted.

 

Dave. 

Dave, thanks for all that, wonderful.I must have felt the same as you then, when heading north from The Midlands to "do" a few Scottish sheds. I well remember in about 1960 when a 16 year old member of the Warwickshire Railway Society, a trip to do the Glasgow area sheds. We went by the 10/45 from New St, and were pulled by D10 from Crewe. On baling out at Motherwell to join the charabanc, there was an A2 stood in the next platform on a mail train. How on earth the shed foremen at Motherwell and Polmadie let us round in the dark I'll never know. That trip became known (amongst a few of us) as "Polmadie by faglight". Oh halcyon days....... Re my LT&S loco, I've decided that for the time being it will stay 42507 and join my L&Y 2-4-2T (kit built birthday pressie) and ex Caley 0-4-4T (ex Tri-ang M7) as my "on loan for evaluation" locos. Thank goodness for "Modellers Licence"! But I have made a template for that cabside curve on the 2 cylinder locos. maybe one day..................      

 

Gordon. 

[snowy1051]

The top armature bearing of the 2-6-4T is supposed to be oil retaining  (Reservoil) and not require lubrication. At the time (1954) I suppose they weren't considering sixty years in the future however and a drop of thin oil certainly appears necessary now.

 

A 2-6-4T (with the original mazak body) in good order should be capable of a scale 100 mph with 4 HD coaches in tow and be able to pull 7 or 8 of them without slipping. Modern coaches with pinpoint bearings considerably more. (An HD coach should start to run on a 1 in 30 (33%) incline - rather stiff plain bearings and they are relatively heavy too.) Fitted with a heavy white metal kit body (the Wills kit I assume?) she should be almost unstoppable.

 

This chassis was fitted with an adjustable magnetic shunt behind the magnet, adjustable through a hole in the rear of the bunker. This was to improve the slow running, but is best removed (it it hasn't been already) - it provides a useful piece of phosphor bronze and a B.A. screw.

Hello, she is indeed unstoppable, Next time I take it apart I'll check on that magnetic shunt. Thank you.

[malcolmt]

Hello,

 

I'm a Hornby Dublo 3 rail collector also located in Southern Alberta. If you PM me, I can give you a contact for a fellow in Toronto who repairs Hornby Dublo (and Wrenn).

 

Cheers

 

Malcolm T

Calgary, Alberta

 

Hello, earlier this year I acquired a kit built Stanier 3 cylinder 2-6-4T on an HD chassis with scale wheels. I must say that it really is well built and looks very nice. Tho' recently it has started to show signs of its age. It is not as quick off the mark, occasionally needs a gentle tap to get going and there is a slight sort of "grating" noise as it runs forward but is still sewing machine like in reverse. I've just managed to separate the body from the chassis ( quite a tight fit!) and cleaned the commutator slots and looked at the bushes. The forward one is showing about 1mm and the rear one a little more. As I live in Southern Alberta, getting HD spares is generally a cross the Atlantic job. Can some kind person please advise me on the servicing of this chassis, what I need to take apart and clean etc. I must add that this is the first time I have had an HD chassis undressed and upside down in my cradle, so I'm all ears. Also, as this loco doesn't sit too well with my East Worcestershire stud of 21A and a few WR locos, I'm open to offers, even a swap, I'm after another 2-6-4T that would have seen time at Saltley. I would be so very grateful for any servicing tips re this chassis. Thank you. Gordon. 

[Il Grifone]

Re 3 cylinder 2-6-4Ts, the book I have - 'British Locomotive Classes' - a reprint of an Ian Allan publication of 1945 - states, "The first locomotives were all sent to the London, Tilbury and Southend section, but since that time the class has been distributed more widely." It is thus likely that one could have been seen at Saltney during the BR period. Unfortunately I can't find my last surviving locoshed book to check.

[snowy1051]

Re 3 cylinder 2-6-4Ts, the book I have - 'British Locomotive Classes' - a reprint of an Ian Allan publication of 1945 - states, "The first locomotives were all sent to the London, Tilbury and Southend section, but since that time the class has been distributed more widely." It is thus likely that one could have been seen at Saltney during the BR period. Unfortunately I can't find my last surviving locoshed book to check.

Thank you, heartening news, except when I checked Hugh longworth's 2011 book of BR Steam Loco Allocations, they were all exclusively LT&S right up to the end and my 1962 Observers says the same too. The Hugh Longworth allocations has a gap between 1960 and '63, but as the LT&S was electrified in 1962, one can assume that these locos were withdrawn from either Shoeburyness or Plaistow. 29 of them were withdrawn in 1962. Oh well, back to "on loan for evaluation".  

Can you imagine these locos on 3 or 4 coach locals in the West Midlands of the mid-50's, they'd be waiting time every where!

Thank you for your interest. Gordon. 

[Il Grifone]

These would have gone right past my house, but it was built too late! All you get now are EMUs, class 66 and 70 Diesels and a rare 37 on engineering trains. The shed that was just across the tracks no longer exists and no trace remains

[snowy1051]

These would have gone right past my house, but it was built too late! All you get now are EMUs, class 66 and 70 Diesels and a rare 37 on engineering trains. The shed that was just across the tracks no longer exists and no trace remains

Ah, sometimes (only sometimes) I almost miss those British diesels, we are not that close to the CP line through Lethbridge, but, when the wind is right, we can here the regular midnight Eastbound heading onto our very famous bridge. The High Level Bridge, the longest and highest trestle bridge in the world! I well remember standing ankle deep in snow and waiting in minus temperatures to photo a Westbound on the bridge, I got my shot, but now that we live here, the novelty has somewhat lessened.   Happy model railroading everybody.