SG's descent into comparing Swiss n gauge - Formally; SBB Coaching Stock Liveries

[chb2488]

The Ibertren model looks like a re-branded Eurofima 2nd corridor. As Gordonwis has hinted earlier, the Swiss Bpm Z1 were not part of the Eurofima programme (and were 2nd opens with 10 window bays). But there‘s a chance that a model will materialise some day.

[Gordonwis]

7 hours ago, Satan's Goldfish said:

 

Ibertren by the looks of it, https://www.ricardo.ch/de/a/spur-n-sbb-eurofima-2.kl.-von-ibertren-1111135012/ any comment on the quality of ibertren? I'm not that familiar with them.

 

Additional: I didn't think minitrix did anything scale length in Eurofima orange, but then this appeared! https://www.spurweite-n.de/ncontent/ndb/ndb-artdetails.asp?ID=453054140&DoLog=0&LogType=0&NoLog=1&Sel_Hersteller_FString=Minitrix&Sel_ORDERBY=Produktdatum&ToShow=3379&MaxCount=4478 shame it's 1st class.

 

 

Ibertren 'Eurofimas' (non SBB) are what I would call 'adequate' but usually sit a bit high on rather cumbersome bogies.

 

The SBB 2nd class coaches pictured in your link  are again what I would call an 'adequate' representation of an SBB 2nd class Z1, not 100% accurate but good enough for most 'viewers'

 

SBB's 'Z1' 2nd class coaches were not 'Eurofima' aka 'European Standard coach' aka Voiture standard Europeen (VSE)'  

 

The Minitrix SBB 1st is ostensibly a 'correct' SBB 1st class, from the  'official' VSE Eurofima programme but the model is a bit rough and ready (viz the horrible split between upper and lower bodyside. Having said that I do have one (bought cheaply) to go with my other orange coaches (ie SBB RIC and FS and OBB versions

Edited July 11, 2021 by Gordonwis

[Satan's Goldfish]

If they've been rebranded, that would explain why they were tricky to find...

 

So (and I'm sorry for all the questions, just trying to learn what's what) are the 2nd class orange SBB 'like eurofima' coaches the same as the 2 tone grey eurocity coaches, after a paint job?

[chb2488]

There was one „like eurofima“ coach that carried an early version of the eurocity livery on one side, nicknamed the Chamäleon. The other two tone grey coaches are the newer eurocity coaches and should be available from Minitrix in two tone grey, Cisalpino grey or ICN-livery. The still in your post from the 2/7/2021 shows a Eurocity next to a „like eurofima“ coach. Apart from the livery, you can distinguish the coaches by the lower skirting on the ECs, among other things.

[Gordonwis]

14 hours ago, Satan's Goldfish said:

If they've been rebranded, that would explain why they were tricky to find...

 

So (and I'm sorry for all the questions, just trying to learn what's what) are the 2nd class orange SBB 'like eurofima' coaches the same as the 2 tone grey eurocity coaches, after a paint job?

 

situation in 1997:

 

70 x 1st class Apm. SBB designation = 'type EC' :  built 1989-95, number range 61 85 10 90 200 - 269; two tone grey livery

 

154 x 2nd class Bpm. SBB designation = 'type EC' : built 1990-95, number range 61 85 20 90 200 - 354; two tone grey livery

 

20 x Eurofima 1st class Am.  SBB designation = 'type UIC Z1' aka 'UIC air conditioned': built 1977, number range 61 85 19 90 500 - 519; two tone grey livery

 

29 x 'like Eurofima' 2nd class Bpm. SBB designation = 'type UIC Z1' aka 'UIC air conditioned' : built 1980-81, number range 61 85 20 70 500-529; orange livery

 

20 x  2nd class Couchettes Bcm. SBB designation = 'type UIC Z1' aka 'UIC air conditioned': built 1979, number range 61 85 50 70 100 - 119; night blue livery

 

 

 

[Satan's Goldfish]

Thanks Gordon, all useful info.

 

Back to Ibertren, it's easy to see what you mean about cumbersome on bogies on this one. 

 

It looks a bit French in style to me, is it a 1st class Eurofima that's been repainted or is it something French that's been repainted? Since the recent change in access to European markets following the B word, it seems to be increasingly difficult to find Swiss carriages on my 'wish list' and I think some improvising may be need, more on that later...

[Gordonwis]

7 hours ago, Satan's Goldfish said:

Thanks Gordon, all useful info.

 

Back to Ibertren, it's easy to see what you mean about cumbersome on bogies on this one. 

 

It looks a bit French in style to me, is it a 1st class Eurofima that's been repainted or is it something French that's been repainted? Since the recent change in access to European markets following the B word, it seems to be increasingly difficult to find Swiss carriages on my 'wish list' and I think some improvising may be need, more on that later...

 

It's not 'French', nor 'Swiss'. It is one of Ibertren's Eurofima models falsely purporting as a Swiss 'Type EC' . Having said that SBB's 20 1st class Eurofima spent a short while in two tone grey so it's just about OK.

 

Personally I avoid the Ibertren Eurofima models (issued in many versions) as they are too 'bulky' in style, other manufacturers have made better models of the Eurofima. 

Edited July 15, 2021 by Gordonwis

[Satan's Goldfish]

11 hours ago, Gordonwis said:

 

It's not 'French', nor 'Swiss'. It is one of Ibertren's Eurofima models falsely purporting as a Swiss 'Type EC' . Having said that SBB's 20 1st class Eurofima spent a short while in two tone grey so it's just about OK.

 

Personally I avoid the Ibertren Eurofima models (issued in many versions) as they are too 'bulky' in style, other manufacturers have made better models of the Eurofima. 

 

The Ibertren 'version' appeared as a 'you may also like' while I took a look at a much nicer 2 tone grey Roco Eurofima. I'm trying to complete rakes of coaches now but as mentioned a couple of days ago the supply seems to have dried up a bit. Watching far too many YouTube videos, a set that appears often is 2x 2nd class RIC, 2x 2nd class EW iv, 2x 1st class EW iv, and a baggage van. I've all the bits of that apart from the 2x 1st class coaches, there's often variations on that make up and specifically on the 1st class coaches I've seen videos with a pair of 1st class Eurocity, or 1 EW iv and 1 orange Eurofima instead.

 

 

 

 

In an actual stock comparison (not had one of those for a while!) I recently got hold of a green/grey Fleischmann EW iv to compare with the Roco versions I've already got.

 

 

The grey is a slightly different shade, and the stripe above the green is a different thickness. I'll need to do a bit of YouTube research to see if that different stripe thickness is a common occurrence. 

 

 

In my normal use of it in the push/pull set it won't be directly coupled to the similar Roco version anyway so if one of them is not right then it shouldn't notice so much.

 

 

The level of detail with the windows etc is fairly similar, I lost track of which was which when I compared it to a Roco version without the bear on! But I think the paint job on the Fleischmann is nicer and a bit more defined.

[Gordonwis]

12 hours ago, Satan's Goldfish said:

 

 

 

The grey is a slightly different shade, and the stripe above the green is a different thickness. I'll need to do a bit of YouTube research to see if that different stripe thickness is a common occurrence. 

 

 

 

I didn't think the green livery had ever featured such a thick upper white stripe as appears on the Fleischmann model - so I'd say it was rare but ready to be corrected if any other evidence comes to light.

[Satan's Goldfish]

11 minutes ago, Gordonwis said:

 

I didn't think the green livery had ever featured such a thick upper white stripe as appears on the Fleischmann model - so I'd say it was rare but ready to be corrected if any other evidence comes to light.

 

You've made the same error I did when I first compared them and didn't use the version with the bear on to keep track of which is which; it's actually the Roco version that has the thick upper stripe. I will be wasting a lot of time on YouTube at some point to check, but i thought in green they were all the same thickness, but i have spotted variations on the modern white/black before so anything is possible.

[Gordonwis]

On 16/07/2021 at 11:01, Satan's Goldfish said:

 

The Ibertren 'version' appeared as a 'you may also like' while I took a look at a much nicer 2 tone grey Roco Eurofima. I'm trying to complete rakes of coaches now but as mentioned a couple of days ago the supply seems to have dried up a bit. Watching far too many YouTube videos, a set that appears often is 2x 2nd class RIC, 2x 2nd class EW iv, 2x 1st class EW iv, and a baggage van. I've all the bits of that apart from the 2x 1st class coaches, there's often variations on that make up and specifically on the 1st class coaches I've seen videos with a pair of 1st class Eurocity, or 1 EW iv and 1 orange Eurofima instead.

 

 

Given your collection, here is an interesting picture:

 

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/ch/SBB_CFF_FFS/car/EW_IV/B/100928-046.jpg

 

 

 

Edited July 18, 2021 by Gordonwis

[Satan's Goldfish]

On 16/07/2021 at 23:21, Gordonwis said:

 

I didn't think the green livery had ever featured such a thick upper white stripe as appears on the Fleischmann model - so I'd say it was rare but ready to be corrected if any other evidence comes to light.

 

I've done some thorough YouTube research, and it would seem the white stripe at the top should go to just above the first roof rib on every single EW iv coach I saw, and RIC coaches, and most of the other EC type coaches which aren't green and grey but have a similar stripe, including the one with the bear on the side (screen shot below, courtesy of Thomas Eckhardt on YouTube). Looking closely at the pictures I took the other day, the narrow stripe on the Fleischmann model is the more accurate of the 2. Luckily n gauge is small enough that from a distance hopefully it's not too noticeable

 

[Gordonwis]

7 hours ago, Satan's Goldfish said:

 

I've done some thorough YouTube research, and it would seem the white stripe at the top should go to just above the first roof rib on every single EW iv coach I saw, and RIC coaches, and most of the other EC type coaches which aren't green and grey but have a similar stripe, including the one with the bear on the side (screen shot below, courtesy of Thomas Eckhardt on YouTube). Looking closely at the pictures I took the other day, the narrow stripe on the Fleischmann model is the more accurate of the 2. Luckily n gauge is small enough that from a distance hopefully it's not too noticeable

 

 

 

Yes I agree. I had Roco green EWIV for years and I don't think I ever really noticed the upper stripe was wrong!

 

The 'error' is not repeated (because there is more white overall) on the white/black version where the Roco and Fleischmann versions match 

 

 

.

[Satan's Goldfish]

I've had a small Ebay splurge recently so there's more stock to do some comparisons with.

 

While the stock box is out though, I'm going to start with a better look at the green EW iv white stripe thickness issue. Looking at the prototype, the white stripe goes over the 1st roof rib but stops before reaching the 2nd. A close look at the models, and the stripe reaches the 2nd rib on the Roco model, but doesn't cover the 1st on the Fleischmann version, so they're both not quite right somewhere.

 

 

 

The stripe on the Kato RIC coach looks a better thickness than either of the others when compared to rakes on YouTube vids IMO.

 

 

 

For new coaching stock, I've received a 1st class orange Roco Eurofima. Until it turned up, I hadn't quite realised how asymmetric each side of these were for window openings and side details. Another nice touch although not prototypical is the bottom parts of the doors moving with the couplings for negotiating tight curves.

 

 

 

I didn't realise the body stripe on these was silver/grey either, I'd assumed it would be white.

 

It is definitely a much nicer model than the Arnold FS Eurofima. 

 

 

 

 

More to come....

[Satan's Goldfish]

A side by side of the 2x different orange coaches, they won't be running next to each other!

 

 

 

 

 

And a side by side with a minitrix Eurocity, the stripes line up much better than with the Arnold FS coach.

 

 

 

 

 

So what's my intended use for this 1st class Eurofima? For the moment it will run as a 'stand in' on a standard green EW iv/RIC set. A lot of RE 4/4ii hauled services seemed to consist of 2x 2nd RIC, 2x 2nd EW iv, 2x 1st EW iv, and a baggage van, but I've seen versions with the 2x 1st class coaches replaced by grey Eurocity coaches and other colour/types of coaches filling in as required (including random individual orange coaches). I've a Roco 1st class EW iv on it's way from German, so for the pics below the Fleischmann 2nd is being used as a stand in. Lighting was a struggle, but I'm happy with the way this train looks.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Onto freight vehicles. Everything I've got in the box so far was DB rather than SBB, and a lot of it vintage 1970s! So I've picked up some SBB Roco vans so freight can pretend to be in the right country. 

 

 

 

 

Very nice models, and match similar Minitrix models nicely.

 

 

 

 

 

Finally, to upset the purists, I'm reaching enough wagons that a 2nd freight is starting to take shape. I don't know why, but the child in me has always liked bright colourful tank wagons, in particular the Minitrix 2x and 4x axle tankers. The first 3 wagons behind the engine in this set I bought back in the early 90s when I had British outline stock, the Texaco and DEA are recent purchases and there's another different coloured bogie BP in the post too. Somewhere in one of the old stock boxes is a 1970s Minitrix 2x axle BP tank that needs a little TLC so that will get added to the rake as well if it's fixable. The aim is to have no 2 wagons the same...... it doesn't need to be a long rake, as long as it looks good behind the AE 6/6 and upsets some people as well as adding a big splash of colour to the future layout.

 

[MOB 2002]

You have been busy! I have to admit all of this talk of orange liveried stock set my mind wandering too.
 

I was also rather inspired by finally getting a copy of ‘Die Seetalbahn’ by Hans Waldburger and Martin Senn. It’s quite some age now but absolutely rammed full of great pictures of the line.

 

 

The one that really surprised me was a De6/6 Seetal Krok on a pair of air conditioned ‘Eurofima-ish’ carriages. 

 

 

Noting from the excellent synopsis in this thread that I’d have to compromise somewhere to represent the train, I decided to go with a pair of actual Eurofima first class carriages. 

 

They’re the Roco version and pretty decent too. Not far behind some much more recent offerings in my book.

 

Mark

[Satan's Goldfish]

Nice find! They look surprisingly at home behind the old Seetal loco.

[MOB 2002]

Indeed, and it would seem that in Switzerland there really is a prototype for everything!

 

Mark

[Frutigen]

19 hours ago, Satan's Goldfish said:

Lighting was a struggle, but I'm happy with the way this train looks.

I think it looks really good

[cornish trains jez]

On 10/08/2021 at 12:55, Satan's Goldfish said:

A side by side of the 2x different orange coaches, they won't be running next to each other!

 

 

 

 

 

And a side by side with a minitrix Eurocity, the stripes line up much better than with the Arnold FS coach.

 

 

 

 

 

So what's my intended use for this 1st class Eurofima? For the moment it will run as a 'stand in' on a standard green EW iv/RIC set. A lot of RE 4/4ii hauled services seemed to consist of 2x 2nd RIC, 2x 2nd EW iv, 2x 1st EW iv, and a baggage van, but I've seen versions with the 2x 1st class coaches replaced by grey Eurocity coaches and other colour/types of coaches filling in as required (including random individual orange coaches). I've a Roco 1st class EW iv on it's way from German, so for the pics below the Fleischmann 2nd is being used as a stand in. Lighting was a struggle, but I'm happy with the way this train looks.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Onto freight vehicles. Everything I've got in the box so far was DB rather than SBB, and a lot of it vintage 1970s! So I've picked up some SBB Roco vans so freight can pretend to be in the right country. 

 

 

 

 

Very nice models, and match similar Minitrix models nicely.

 

 

 

 

 

Finally, to upset the purists, I'm reaching enough wagons that a 2nd freight is starting to take shape. I don't know why, but the child in me has always liked bright colourful tank wagons, in particular the Minitrix 2x and 4x axle tankers. The first 3 wagons behind the engine in this set I bought back in the early 90s when I had British outline stock, the Texaco and DEA are recent purchases and there's another different coloured bogie BP in the post too. Somewhere in one of the old stock boxes is a 1970s Minitrix 2x axle BP tank that needs a little TLC so that will get added to the rake as well if it's fixable. The aim is to have no 2 wagons the same...... it doesn't need to be a long rake, as long as it looks good behind the AE 6/6 and upsets some people as well as adding a big splash of colour to the future layout.

 

I like your mixed stock coach rake. Very typical of Swiss rakes at the time. A nice collection of stock there!

Best regards,

Jeremy

[Gordonwis]

On 10/08/2021 at 12:10, Satan's Goldfish said:

 

 

 

Another nice touch although not prototypical is the bottom parts of the doors moving with the couplings for negotiating tight curves.

 

 

 

 

 

These original versions seem to come up second hand reasonably often, at least in the past, as many modellers, rather than being a 'nice touch' , consider the separated door bases  'horrible' and replaced them in their collections with the later version after Roco had modified the model to have extendable couplings and  therefore a solid one piece body side. (this is a similar situation to other early models where compromises were made to enable stock to take tight curves 

[Satan's Goldfish]

Santa delivered a more modern Roco offering in eurocity grey. The bottom of the door moulding difference between the 2 can be seen, but I don't think it'll bother me much as the livery difference is far more noticeable! 

 

 

 

Gives more options for both the EW iv stand-in coach, and the eurocity rake, to help mix things up a bit

[Satan's Goldfish]

Some recent purchases. 

 

A Kato buffet in Eurofima orange for eurocity service. Matches nicely. Although the stripe is white compared to Roco's silver, are they both correct?

 

 

 

 

 

A Minitrix DB IC/EC 2nd has appeared. Lots of longer plan options here, but for now it will make up for the lack of SBB EC 2nds in the box. When did the 2nd class IC/EC coaches change from Cream/Blue to Red/White? And could the 2 liveries been seen running together in Switzerland? (On YouTube I've seen videos of both liveries, but not at the same time)

 

 

 

 

Fleischmann BLS iv 2nd. Again, lots of future options here, but for now I'm fairly sure I've seen BLS iv in SBB push/pull sets... I hope I didn't imagine that... I am going to have to do a livery check though as the beige stripe at the top is thicker than the stripe on the Fleischmann SBB green coach.

 

 

 

 

 

I wanted some more comfort stripe EW i/ii coaches, so naturally I've ended up with more parrot coloured ones instead.

 

 

Replacing the AB with the comfort stripe A and adding an extra plain B on the rear really looks the part IR service. Plus also proves that the wife's new mantelpiece is a good size for full length trains

 

 

[Satan's Goldfish]

Next up I think I'll be looking for blue sleeper coaches. Any advice on what they would usually run with? YouTube research seems to suggest 2 or 3 blue coaches tacked onto what otherwise seems like a normal service.

 

 

 

[chb2488]

I'll try to answer some of the above questions:

 

- DB Produktfarben (i.e. Red, pastell violet and white for IC) started to appear in late 1986, with plenty of overlap. There would also have been first class coaches in TEE-livery.

 

- The silver stripe on those Eurofima coaches should really be white

 

- There were complete sets of BLS EW IVs & MC76 & Re 465, running with an SBB IC Bt. In fact two of those were rented to BLS, keeping their SBB livery.