A King in WW2: Operation Blackcoat - Update: Primed! (with pictures)

[OnTheBranchline]

Hi everyone,

 

My plan is to paint a King in the WW2 wartime GWR black livery (like how the first Modified Hall 6959 Peatling Hall was in an all black livery). This is a pet project that I've always wanted to try.I know that this never actually happened but it is an interesting 'what if' scenario.

 

The first step is to acquire a suitable King. I found a relatively inexpensive King William IV of the Royal Mail Collection. It's not the newest version of Hornby King but it's good enough:

 

The plan is to repaint the model in black and add WW2 wartime touches (for example, plated-over cab side windows).

 

Let me know what you think or if you have any suggestions/comments.

Edited April 3, 2020 by OnTheBranchline
Update topic title

[The Great Bear]

Take care, are you sure Kings were painted black? I thought Kings and Castles weren't painted black but unlined green with G crest W. Stars and Halls got unlined black with G crest W everything less unlined black and GWR.

Edited January 21, 2017 by The Great Bear

[Castle]

Hi All,

 

The Kings as far as anyone can tell were all unlined green in WWII but Ian Sixsmith's Book of the Castles says that both No. 5001 and No. 5018 went black. I've not seen that modelled and it's authentic! This is however a 'what if' type model and it will be interesting to see what it looks like...

 

I suppose a WWII stretching into 1946 scenario could have resulted in this. Perhaps the final defeat of Nazi Germany is taking longer than expected due to the production of combat ready jet fighter aircraft like the ME 262 and Arado Blitz beginning earlier in the war and the bomber offensive and invasion of Europe after D-Day being much more difficult as a result?

 

Enough alternative history!

 

All the best,

 

Castle

Edited January 21, 2017 by Castle

[OnTheBranchline]

Hi All,

 

The Kings as far as anyone can tell were all unlined green in WWII but Ian Sixsmith's Book of the Castles says that both No. 5001 and No. 5018 went black. I've not seen that modelled and it's authentic! This is however a 'what if' type model and it will be interesting to see what it looks like...

 

All the best,

 

Castle

 

I was thinking of trying a Castle but a lot of the older versions of the Hornby Castle have the wrong inner cylinder cover (they mostly all have the ones from the 1950s with the anti-slip plate across the top).

[Castle]

I was thinking of trying a Castle but a lot of the older versions of the Hornby Castle have the wrong inner cylinder cover (they mostly all have the ones from the 1950s with the anti-slip plate across the top).

Hi OTBL,

 

You could try just shaping the square front edge round into the radiused edge of the earlier No. 5013 onwards version? A file would soon take care of that... As long as it doesn't have a mechanical lubricator on the running plate, the curved round the window cab handrail and / or a double chimney, you should be ok. Number it 5018 and you are good to go!

 

All the best,

 

Castle

Edited January 21, 2017 by Castle

[OnTheBranchline]

Hi OTBL,

 

You could try just shaping the square front edge round into the radiused edge of the earlier No. 5013 onwards version? A file would soon take care of that... As long as it doesn't have a mechanical lubricator on the running plate, the curved round the window cab handrail and / or a double chimney, you should be ok. Number it 5018 and you are good to go!

 

All the best,

 

Castle

Or hawksworth tender.

[K14]

Interesting 'what if...' project, looking forward to seeing how it turns out, especially if you go for the full fat version with no nameplates & 'KING CLASS' painted on the splasher.

 

A couple of detailing points.

 

1 - The sliding shutters on the cab roof weren't introduced until the early to mid 50s (I've seen both 1952 and 1954 stated)

2 - When the cabside windows were plated over, the brass surround was removed & the plate bolted through the existing holes. There's a good shot of this as applied to 4096 here:—

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/95844-castle-class-cab-floor-wood-or-chequerplate/&do=findComment&comment=1778013

 

3 - The 9" GW on the tender should be yellow. At least one manufacturer produces these in metallic gold.

 

Pete S.

 

 

[bescotbeast]

Take care, are you sure Kings were painted black? I thought Kings and Castles weren't painted black but unlined green with G crest W. Stars and Halls got unlined black with G crest W everything less unlined black and GWR.

I think the clincher was "I know that this never actually happened but it is an interesting 'what if' scenario."

[OnTheBranchline]

Interesting 'what if...' project, looking forward to seeing how it turns out, especially if you go for the full fat version with no nameplates & 'KING CLASS' painted on the splasher.

 

A couple of detailing points.

 

1 - The sliding shutters on the cab roof weren't introduced until the early to mid 50s (I've seen both 1952 and 1954 stated)

2 - When the cabside windows were plated over, the brass surround was removed & the plate bolted through the existing holes. There's a good shot of this as applied to 4096 here:—

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/95844-castle-class-cab-floor-wood-or-chequerplate/&do=findComment&comment=1778013

 

3 - The 9" GW on the tender should be yellow. At least one manufacturer produces these in metallic gold.

 

Pete S.

 

1 - Every Hornby GWR King that I can find (other than the newest versions) has those sliding shutters.

2 - Noted

3 - Was it going to be any other colour other than yellow?

Edited January 22, 2017 by OnTheBranchline

[The Stationmaster]

Take care, are you sure Kings were painted black? I thought Kings and Castles weren't painted black but unlined green with G crest W. Stars and Halls got unlined black with G crest W everything less unlined black and GWR.

 

Some 'Kings' were definitely turned out during the war in fully lined livery according to contemporaneous reported observations (possibly with particular use in mind?)

[Castle]

Some 'Kings' were definitely turned out during the war in fully lined livery according to contemporaneous reported observations (possibly with particular use in mind?)

Well, there you go - you learn something new every day (although I will bet that Mr K14 knew this already which is why I always ask him my livery questions...)! Cheers Mike!

 

Smacks of VIP transportation of varying types doesn't it?

 

All the best,

 

Castle

[K14]

3 - Was it going to be any other colour other than yellow?

Not suggesting it was, merely pointing out that there are transfers of dubious provenance out there that could trap the unwary (14" roundel anyone?).

[OnTheBranchline]

So it turns out that I cannot find 90% IPA (only 70% and 99%). I would rather not use 99% IPA because I do not want to damage the plastic. I do not want to use brake fluid because I have heard it also damages the plastic.

 

Please keep in mind that I live in North America and many of the products talked about on here are just for the UK.

[K14]

So it turns out that I cannot find 90% IPA (only 70% and 99%). I would rather not use 99% IPA because I do not want to damage the plastic. I do not want to use brake fluid because I have heard it also damages the plastic.

 

Please keep in mind that I live in North America and many of the products talked about on here are just for the UK.

DIY? 99% IPA diluted with water (distilled if you can get it) - all you need is a glass measuring jug & a window of opportunity when the Mrs is out.

 

I'm guessing that you want it in order to take off the existing lettering. Being as it's a wartime repaint, I doubt that the Works spent much time on preparation, so would quite likely have just toshed locos over with a coat of black. If the underlying insignia showed through, they wouldn't have been over-bothered as the priority would have been to get the loco back into traffic.

 

If you have Haresnape's 'BR Steam Liveries 1948-1968' there's a shot of ex-GER N7 69727 with its LNER number clearly visible as 'lumps' in the paint (plus I'm sure there is .a pic in one of Russell's engines books of a side-tank loco showing a similar lump indicating where the numberplate was fixed to the tank side).

 

P.

[The Stationmaster]

DIY? 99% IPA diluted with water (distilled if you can get it) - all you need is a glass measuring jug & a window of opportunity when the Mrs is out.

 

I'm guessing that you want it in order to take off the existing lettering. Being as it's a wartime repaint, I doubt that the Works spent much time on preparation, so would quite likely have just toshed locos over with a coat of black. If the underlying insignia showed through, they wouldn't have been over-bothered as the priority would have been to get the loco back into traffic.

 

If you have Haresnape's 'BR Steam Liveries 1948-1968' there's a shot of ex-GER N7 69727 with its LNER number clearly visible as 'lumps' in the paint (plus I'm sure there is .a pic in one of Russell's engines books of a side-tank loco showing a similar lump indicating where the numberplate was fixed to the tank side).

 

P.

 

Somewhere I have a  colour slide I took a good many years ago of a certain large 8-coupled tank engine at Didcot GWS after someone had clearly been having some fun with paint stripper and it showed on the sidetanks where various insignia were from its past history.

[K14]

Somewhere I have a  colour slide I took a good many years ago of a certain large 8-coupled tank engine at Didcot GWS after someone had clearly been having some fun with paint stripper and it showed on the sidetanks where various insignia were from its past history.

 

I don't doubt it. The same nearly happened with 4144's - they were laid out flat in the works & Nitromors'd. Thankfully I'd got in there first & recovered what I could.

 

We've thrown away so much source information that way; thankfully some of us have the patience to excavate, record and protect the remains.

 

Not sure if this was still exposed on the last RMWeb tour:—

 

 

Same paint job as features in the Pathe film of No.5, quite possibly from its 1921 Swindon overhaul (so that dark green is the real McCoy). I'd love to attack 1363's tank - odds are it's been preserved to death, but you never know.

 

Dragging matters back on topic, the tender that used to live behind 4942 has a war-built tank. The base coats look to be 2 coats red lead, with black straight on top. G (crest) W under there too.

 

P.

[OnTheBranchline]

Hi All,

 

The Kings as far as anyone can tell were all unlined green in WWII but Ian Sixsmith's Book of the Castles says that both No. 5001 and No. 5018 went black. I've not seen that modelled and it's authentic! This is however a 'what if' type model and it will be interesting to see what it looks like...

 

I suppose a WWII stretching into 1946 scenario could have resulted in this. Perhaps the final defeat of Nazi Germany is taking longer than expected due to the production of combat ready jet fighter aircraft like the ME 262 and Arado Blitz beginning earlier in the war and the bomber offensive and invasion of Europe after D-Day being much more difficult as a result?

 

Enough alternative history!

 

All the best,

 

Castle

Were the copper cap chimney and brass safety valve not touched when they were painted black? Edited January 25, 2017 by OnTheBranchline

[OnTheBranchline]

Interesting 'what if...' project, looking forward to seeing how it turns out, especially if you go for the full fat version with no nameplates & 'KING CLASS' painted on the splasher.

 

A couple of detailing points.

 

1 - The sliding shutters on the cab roof weren't introduced until the early to mid 50s (I've seen both 1952 and 1954 stated)

2 - When the cabside windows were plated over, the brass surround was removed & the plate bolted through the existing holes. There's a good shot of this as applied to 4096 here:—

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/95844-castle-class-cab-floor-wood-or-chequerplate/&do=findComment&comment=1778013

 

3 - The 9" GW on the tender should be yellow. At least one manufacturer produces these in metallic gold.

 

Pete S.

 

Any tips on how to remove the brass surround on the actual OO model?

[Hilux5972]

Any tips on how to remove the brass surround on the actual OO model?

Gently scrape it away with a very sharp blade. Then use some fine wet/dry sandpaper to smooth it off. You will have to touch up the paint after but as your adding the shutters then you would have to do that anyway.

[K14]

Were the copper cap chimney and brass safety valve not touched when they were painted black?

 

Had a scour through Volume 2 of Russell's 'Engines', Haresnape's 'Railway Liveries - Great Western 1923-1947, and GWR Journal No.7. Not much info in any of those regarding 'brightware' apart from Haresnape who states that it was painted over. That clashes with the official portrait of 6959 (presumably taken in March 1944) replete with all the shiny bits.

 

My own feeling is that if Swindon had painted Kings black, they'd have baulked at painting the bonnet & cap & even if they had, it would have lasted about 5 minutes once it got to its allocated shed. Rule 1 applies here I think.

 

Any tips on how to remove the brass surround on the actual OO model?

 

Not having one (& no intention of either - far too modern for my tastes) I can't say for sure, but a trawl around Ebay produced a few photos that suggest the 'brass' surround is part & parcel with the glazing:—

 

 

Note that the outside edges seem to be transparent. If that's the case then it might be a relatively simple matter to push them out from the inside, or pry them off by getting something under the edge - provided they haven't been welded in with glue.

 

If they are glued in, perhaps drill a hole through the centre big enough to get a round swiss file in (1/8" or so) & then carefully work outwards to the edges. At some point the glue ought to give up & roll over.

 

If they're part of the cabside moulding, then I'd be reaching for some sort of edged weapon like a 1/2" chisel - honed to the point that you could shave with it. YMMV though.

 

P.

[The Stationmaster]

If in doubt I visit my postcard collection - it sometimes actually turns up worthwhile information  .

 

In this case 6021 on the Down Main line at Reading West Jcn, undated commercial issue postcard back but obviously using a Maurice Earley original photo.  It might be early post-war but the cab side window is clearly plated over  - tender lettered G coa W; no lining discernible in the picture but that's not really an indication of whether it would be present or not;  copper cap clearly visible although bit grubby; safety valve cover also appears to be bare metal but rather grubby, more so than the the chimney.

[OnTheBranchline]

So I used a modelling knife to pry the cabside windows out:

 

Not the prettiest job in the world but it's done. I hope the way I did it was acceptable to the people reading this.

 

I also learned that the front windows of the cab are molded to the cabside windows, so I will have to cut them separately and glue the front windows back in.

 

 

Now my next question, how can I retain the copper cap chimney and brass safety valve effect when I submerge the model in the IPA? Or is it not possible?

 

 

[Corbs]

Looking forward to seeing how you get on with this, should look pretty imposing I think!

[OnTheBranchline]

Looking forward to seeing how you get on with this, should look pretty imposing I think!

 

I was thinking more of:

[OnTheBranchline]

Now that the windows are out, what material should I use to create the plated over effect? I was thinking of thin cardboard.