Suitable Coaches for my SECR class H

[Y Ddewin gwyn]

HI all, I tried this topic in a more general part of the forum and got nothing, so I thought I would throw it in amongst those of a more specifically pre-grouping orientation! For running behind my Horby SECR Wainwright class H, I am considering getting some Roxey Mouldings LCDR 4-wheelers, or the SECR bogie stock from the same source (4C77-4C80) are also possible I guess. However, I am wanting to know if there are more appropriate coaches lurking out there that could be used? From everything I can tell the Bachmann birdcage coaches, whilst they look lovely, are more suitable for longer distance trains. However, as I am a novice in all things SECR, I have a lot to learn. 

[Nick Holliday]

There are more choices within the Branchlines range, although you need to contact him by email, as there is no useful website, and some items aren't always available. His list includes a number of SER four and six wheelers, as well as suitable NPCS to add to a passenger train. There is also a suite of LCDR bogie coaches, and a couple of bogie SECR items, an invalid salon and a 44ft bogie composite. Roxey also have a number of SER and LCDR NPCS kits to liven up the mix.

[Y Ddewin gwyn]

Thanks for that Nick. I had seen reference to the Branchlines stuff, but I had no real idea what they had. What I think I need to do now is get hold of some good reference books, and see what they show me.

[Guy Rixon]

Assuming that you have the H class in Wainwright livery, then your train would be in the time range 1905 (when the engines were first built) to c.1915 (when Mr Maunsell had them painted grey). That is the period when they were first-rank engines for the services in inner and outer London. One would not typically see an H class on a country branch, or moving local trains further down the main line. They would not have hauled the longer-range fast trains as they didn't have the water capacity (the only exception being between Cannon Street and Charing Cross, where many kinds of locomotive could handle the last couple of miles).

 

In the first part of the period, many inner-London trains were formed of 4-wheel stock. The last generation of this, from the SER side, was built between 1896 and 1902, and Branchlines make kits for these; they are "modern" 4-wheelers with 3-arc roofs. Some of these sets later acquired ex-SER. 6-wheel brake ends. The LCDR equivalent is covered by Roxey kits. There were also older trains of arc-roofed 4-wheeled, ex-SER coaches still running, but I think there have never been kits of these.

 

Later on, I think (from memory; could look it up in Gould if you need confirmation), bogies coaches were built for both the inner and outer suburban services and trains of these were mixed in with the trains of 4 and 6 wheeled stock. However, I doubt that bogie and 4-wheeled stock would have been formed in the same suburban set, and the SECR liked set trains that were not remarshalled in service. I suspect that the available kits for SER/LCDR/SECR bogie-coaches - choose from Branchlines, Roxey, Worsley Works and Mousa for kits of various diagrams - are mainly those built for the expresses. These might gradually be cascaded to the suburban trains over time.

 

If you can get a copy of Mr. Gould's books on SECR coaches then you will be much better placed to choose. There are two books. The later one, covering only the bogie stock, is still in print, but the earlier book, covering the 4-wheeled and 6-wheeled stock as well, is out of print.

[Y Ddewin gwyn]

Thanks Guy. I do indeed have the Wainwright liveried example. I was able to deduce from the internet that the class H was a mainly suburban London proposition, hence the layout I am considering is an adaptation of Hayes, potentially expanded to a shared terminus with the LBSCR.

[Nearholmer]

I’m no expert here, but two thoughts:

 

- lcdr six wheelers were still in use on suburban services until the late 1920s, when the inner suburban electrification was finished,

 

- secr built a large number of, by the standards of the day, quite good quality suburban bogie coaches at the period in question, with the intent of converting them to EMUs once they’d scraped together the money for electrification. I think the ‘hundred seater’ on the Bluebell is one of these, but it might be earlier. Most, if not all, of these coaches were converted by the SR in the 1920s, becoming the eastern section 3-SUBs.

 

Kevin

Edited November 5, 2017 by Nearholmer

[Y Ddewin gwyn]

Though evidently not the same diagram, the Bluebell 100 seater looks similar in design to the Roxey bogie coaches. Thanks for all this information; I'm such a history nerd that I love to know the answers and get those sorts of things right. However, as there is distinct scarcity of SECR experts are lurking in Australia, and the chances of me ever exhibiting a layout again are fairly slim; so I really shouldn't worry too much! 

[phil-b259]

Though evidently not the same diagram, the Bluebell 100 seater looks similar in design to the Roxey bogie coaches. Thanks for all this information; I'm such a history nerd that I love to know the answers and get those sorts of things right. However, as there is distinct scarcity of SECR experts are lurking in Australia, and the chances of me ever exhibiting a layout again are fairly slim; so I really shouldn't worry too much! 

 

The '100' seaters' as found on the Bluebell weren't built till the last days of the SECR (one of the two on the Bluebell was actually built by the newly formed SR) and as such they would not have existed alongside the ornately lined H tank just released by Hornby

[Guy Rixon]

I looked up the "Trio-C' sets of 60-foot coaches in Gould; these are the ones for which Bachmann make the RTR models. Apparently, they were used on local services as well as main-line workings. Therefore, in the period 1912-c.1915, an H in Wainwright livery with a Trio-C set in lake livery is plausible as a branch-line train. For a branch with only moderate traffic it might be a bit OTT. In fact, I think Hayes was served by a railmotor. However, in an alternate history where Hayes grew more quickly it would be OK.

 

Other historical formations with H class:

 

- Train of 15 ex-SER 6-wheeled coaches on the old main line, between Brockley and Honor Oak Park, c. 1909. Branchlines and Mousa sell kits for coaches of this type. 

 

- Two trio sets, seen in Cray cutting. Date unknown, but the H looks to be in late Wainwright livery, possibly with the simplified lining and the dome painted over.

 

- Local train with ex-LCDR 6-wheel coaches, and three cattle wagons, see again in Cray Cutting.

 

- Through coaches from the 10:15 Deal-Birmingham, seen at Willsden in 1910. Visible coaches are a SECR 6-wheeled brake and two LNWR centre-brake coaches.

[Nearholmer]

If you can find any photos of trains on the Caterham Branch, they would help, because that line was prime H territory, with several shedded at Purley, at this time, I think.

 

Caterham is an interesting case-study, because it was fast transforming from a small, rural, town, into a commuter suburb. It got a hefty station upgrade c1900, and traffic continued to grow, probably until the 1960s, necessitating electrification (1920s?) to keep up with the pace. I'd be willing to bet that it was given the best of SECR stock.

 

There are one or two useful pictures here of Bexhill, although they might be 'through portions' http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/b/bexhill_west/

 

One useful one at Elmers End http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/e/elmers_end/index.shtml

 

But, overall, seems hard to find pictures of these SECR suburban branches.

Edited November 6, 2017 by Nearholmer

[Guy Rixon]

If you can find any photos of trains on the Caterham Branch, they would help, because that line was prime H territory, with several shedded at Purley, at this time, I think.

 

Caterham is an interesting case-study, because it was fast transforming from a small, rural, town, into a commuter suburb. It got a hefty station upgrade c1900, and traffic continued to grow, probably until the 1960s, necessitating electrification (1920s?) to keep up with the pace. I'd be willing to bet that it was given the best of SECR stock.

 

There are one or two useful pictures here of Bexhill, although they might be 'through portions' http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/b/bexhill_west/

 

One useful one at Elmers End http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/e/elmers_end/index.shtml

 

But, overall, seems hard to find pictures of these SECR suburban branches.

 

 

The train in the first photo of Bexhill is almost certainly a special train for the opening, hence presumably a full, through train to London.

 

The trains in the second, coloured picture are likely through portions off Hastings trains. The train on the left possibly has a brake with a reduced-height birdcage, one of the coaches built to clear the Metropolitan loading-gauge. I'll look those up later, but I think they were first built c.1905. Gould lists some of the coaches that were definitely in the through portions. 

 

The picture c.1906 shows the presumed through portion again. It seems to be three coaches, one a birdcage brake, but with the brake end marshalled inside the set. This is consistent with the coloured picture. The loco, I think, is a Q or Q1 rather than an H but it's difficult to be sure.

 

EDIT: I find that some of the 46' tricomposite brakes, SECR numbers 148-162, were used as through coaches for Bexhill. Two were put on this service when new, in 1905, and were displaced in 1908 by gangwayed tricomposite brakes of 1907. These latter were the poshest general-service to run on the SECR in Mr. Wainwright's time. I now suspect that the train the pictures is the through coach plus a regular branch train of two coaches and 4-wheeled van.

 

 

The historic photo of Elmer's End shows a train of 6-wheeled coaches and I think they must be ex-LCDR because they seem to have square corners to the mouldings.

Edited November 8, 2017 by Guy Rixon

[Y Ddewin gwyn]

If you can find any photos of trains on the Caterham Branch, they would help, because that line was prime H territory, with several shedded at Purley, at this time, I think.

 

Caterham is an interesting case-study, because it was fast transforming from a small, rural, town, into a commuter suburb. It got a hefty station upgrade c1900, and traffic continued to grow, probably until the 1960s, necessitating electrification (1920s?) to keep up with the pace. I'd be willing to bet that it was given the best of SECR stock.

 

There are one or two useful pictures here of Bexhill, although they might be 'through portions' http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/b/bexhill_west/

 

One useful one at Elmers End http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/e/elmers_end/index.shtml

 

But, overall, seems hard to find pictures of these SECR suburban branches.

Dang right about SECR suburban branches having a lack of photos. And I thought the South Wales valleys lacked coverage in the pre-grouping era! Still, I have learned enough in this thread to push into the suburbs of plausibility from the outer darkness of ignorance.

 

I looked up the "Trio-C' sets of 60-foot coaches in Gould; these are the ones for which Bachmann make the RTR models. Apparently, they were used on local services as well as main-line workings. Therefore, in the period 1912-c.1915, an H in Wainwright livery with a Trio-C set in lake livery is plausible as a branch-line train. For a branch with only moderate traffic it might be a bit OTT. In fact, I think Hayes was served by a railmotor. However, in an alternate history where Hayes grew more quickly it would be OK.

 

Other historical formations with H class:

 

- Train of 15 ex-SER 6-wheeled coaches on the old main line, between Brockley and Honor Oak Park, c. 1909. Branchlines and Mousa sell kits for coaches of this type. 

 

- Two trio sets, seen in Cray cutting. Date unknown, but the H looks to be in late Wainwright livery, possibly with the simplified lining and the dome painted over.

 

- Local train with ex-LCDR 6-wheel coaches, and three cattle wagons, see again in Cray Cutting.

 

- Through coaches from the 10:15 Deal-Birmingham, seen at Willsden in 1910. Visible coaches are a SECR 6-wheeled brake and two LNWR centre-brake coaches.

 

 

The variation on Hayes I have in mind is a much busier terminus with longer distance trains departing as well; possibly shared with the LBSC. I will post a track plan in another thread soon.

Edited November 8, 2017 by Y Ddewin gwyn

[Compound2632]

In the first part of the period, many inner-London trains were formed of 4-wheel stock. The last generation of this, from the SER side, was built between 1896 and 1902, and Branchlines make kits for these;

 

I fear the word here is "made". I did enquire about these at the Branchlines stand at an exhibition (possibly Warley 2015) and was told they are now out of production. I had stock for the Reading line in the Edwardian era in mind. I hadn't realised these 4-wheelers were quite so "modern". Any idea what stock was in use on the Reading line in that period? There do seem to be plenty of kits around for SECR bogie carriages; as far as I can work out these were continuations of the last SER designs from the late 1890s but there must still have been plenty of much older SER stock about. The LCDR seems to do better than the SER for both carriage and goods stock kits.

[Guy Rixon]

I fear the word here is "made". I did enquire about these at the Branchlines stand at an exhibition (possibly Warley 2015) and was told they are now out of production. I had stock for the Reading line in the Edwardian era in mind. I hadn't realised these 4-wheelers were quite so "modern". Any idea what stock was in use on the Reading line in that period? There do seem to be plenty of kits around for SECR bogie carriages; as far as I can work out these were continuations of the last SER designs from the late 1890s but there must still have been plenty of much older SER stock about. The LCDR seems to do better than the SER for both carriage and goods stock kits.

 

 

The SECR 4-wheelers from Branchlines have been in and out of production over the years, so there is hope yet. And I have a cupboard full of those kits waiting to be built. (Offers in 6 figures and above would obtain a quick sale ).

 

There was indeed a lot of ex-SER stock around, but most of it had six wheels. The better kind were the Wainwright 6-wheeled coaches of the 1880s and 1890s, but there was also Mansell-era (sic: not Maunsell) stock that was reviled in the press. The SER didn't have that many bogie coaches. At the time of the merger, most of the boat trains were still using 6-wheeled coaches.

 

There is some information on Reading-line trains in Gould. I'll have a look over the next few days if I get time.

[Compound2632]

there was also Mansell-era (sic: not Maunsell) stock that was reviled in the press.

 

He of the wooden wheel centres?

[Nearholmer]

Guy

 

I too thought that Elmer’s End coach might be LCDR, but more on gut instinct than science.

 

As a person who is very happy with railway modelling compromises, I think I would pursue the traditional path in these circumstances: re-roof some Triang clerestories with three-arc roofs, build some Ratio Midland low-roof stock, and paint it all SECR livery, except for one rake that would be LBSCR umber and white.

 

With a few ‘genuine’ signature vehicles thrown in the mix, it would look 90+% there.

 

But that’s nothing but bodging!!

 

Kevin

[alfsboy]

i will probably fake up some Ratio 4 wheelers even .They will look good to 99.9999999999 percent of the worlds population :sungum:The Hornby clerestories seem a good idea too .

Edited November 8, 2017 by alfsboy

[Compound2632]

As a person who is very happy with railway modelling compromises, I think I would pursue the traditional path in these circumstances: re-roof some Triang clerestories with three-arc roofs, build some Ratio Midland low-roof stock, and paint it all SECR livery, except for one rake that would be LBSCR umber and white.

 

 

i will probably fake up some Ratio 4 wheelers even .They will look good to 99.9999999999 percent of the worlds population :sungum:The Hornby clerestories seem a good idea too .

 

That's all very well but I'm afraid being a carriage pedant I have to point out that the SER/SECR carriages of the 1890s and early 1900s had a version the "Wolverton" style of panelling, as for example this first class saloon and this lavatory third. The next style, of which there are a number of preserved examples, had square-cornered waist panelling and square lower corners to the upper panels, with round-cornered eves panels. The Bachmann carriages represent a further (I presume later) variant of this, with round corners all round for the upper panels but retaining the square-cornered lower panels. (I'm afraid I don't know dates for these changes in style.)

 

To my mind, using the Ratio or Triang Great Western sides, with round-cornered panels all round, or the Ratio Midland suburbans, with D. Bain' style with a distinctively deep waist panel that became the LMS style, to represent any of these SECR carriages is like painting a BR Mk1 chocolate and cream and writing "Great Western" on the side...

 

Heigh-ho, I must be one of the 0.0000000001 %.

[Guy Rixon]

He of the wooden wheel centres?

 

Yes, that's the fellow. He was carriage superintendent to the SER before William Wainwright. The SER used Mansell-pattern wheels on wagons as well as coaches, because they didn't have to pay the patent fees.

[Compound2632]

Yes, that's the fellow. He was carriage superintendent to the SER before William Wainwright. The SER used Mansell-pattern wheels on wagons as well as coaches, because they didn't have to pay the patent fees.

 

I had been wondering about their use on SER wagons - I understood the idea was that they provided a quieter ride than metal spoked wheels. What were those SER passengers complaining about?

[Guy Rixon]

That's all very well but I'm afraid being a carriage pedant I have to point out that the SER/SECR carriages of the 1890s and early 1900s had a version the "Wolverton" style of panelling, as for example this first class saloon and this lavatory third. The next style, of which there are a number of preserved examples, had square-cornered waist panelling and square lower corners to the upper panels, with round-cornered eves panels. The Bachmann carriages represent a further (I presume later) variant of this, with round corners all round for the upper panels but retaining the square-cornered lower panels. (I'm afraid I don't know dates for these changes in style.)

 

To my mind, using the Ratio or Triang Great Western sides, with round-cornered panels all round, or the Ratio Midland suburbans, with D. Bain' style with a distinctively deep waist panel that became the LMS style, to represent any of these SECR carriages is like painting a BR Mk1 chocolate and cream and writing "Great Western" on the side...

 

Heigh-ho, I must be one of the 0.0000000001 %.

 

Chopping up some Ratio LNWR kits might serve.

 

LCDR square-panelled stock should be really easy to scratch-build in plasticard and microstrip. I'm planning to do a couple of coaches that way for a motor train; neither of the two is available as an etched kit. There are also the D&S kits for the LCDR 6-wheelers that show up occasionally on eBay. IIRC, these don't command such high prices as most D&S kits.

[Guy Rixon]

I had been wondering about their use on SER wagons - I understood the idea was that they provided a quieter ride than metal spoked wheels. What were those SER passengers complaining about?

 

The main use on wagons was the "express" stock for the faster goods trains. These were the 3'7" wheels and probably the inherent damping helped to avoid breakage at speed, given that SER track was a bit iffy. There were also some 3'1" wheels in Mansell pattern.

[Nearholmer]

Compound

 

The trouble is, the more one learns about railways, the more one becomes able to spot inaccuracies in models of them, and the more dissatisfied one becomes as a result.

 

I think I've got to the stage where I've decided that ignorance is, if not bliss, then it is at least a way of capping my personal dissatisfaction levels.

 

All of which is the sort of weak-mindedness that would get me drummed out of any proper model railway society.

 

Kevin

 

PS: I do have three Mk1s in GWR livery, which arrived as part of a package deal to get a loco that I wanted, and even I can't bear to run them. But, I have to confess that isn't because of the livery, which is near enough to post-1957 BR(w), but because they are grossly under scale height. The trouble being, of course, that I know very well how tall Mk1s are. If I didn't, I wouldn't be wasting three carriages.

[Compound2632]

LCDR square-panelled stock should be really easy to scratch-build in plasticard and microstrip. I'm planning to do a couple of coaches that way for a motor train;

 

To go with the P?

[Guy Rixon]

To go with the P?

 

 

Exactly so.