Signalling Burbage

[richbrummitt]

Hello,

 

Long time no post. Truth is I'm not motivated to finish the layout I have part completed - too many misgivings - so I'm thinking about something else. Whilst considering building an Inglenook for the 2mmSA Diamond Jubilee Layout Challenge (Littlemore was started for the Golden...) I was caught by two pictures; this one of Burbage and one In ...Goods Services of Ashton-Under-Wychwood that set me on a 'what if' of a goods loop and, on the opposite side of a double track main line, a single ended siding for either mileage or lay-over. This wouldn't meet the criteria for a challenge layout - although half might - but might stand a better chance of completion.

 

I have some questions on the first (actually third) stab at the diagram below and there are probably some more things I haven't yet thought of :/

 

 

1 and 8 would be starter signals, hence they are not 440yds from the connections they protect. In my imagining there may, or may not, be a station off scene to the left, which may (or may not) form an extension should space permit in the future.

 

a, There could be a 'disc' like 9* at 3 but movements would not start from the goods loop, or could they? It will be significantly foreshortened such that a train would have to be through the goods shed to clear the trap (yes, even a light engine and toad).

 

b, Should 2 have a second doll such that the route is indicated from left to right across 3 to 3 or 3 to 4? What if movements do not occur from bottom left to top right across 3 and 4?

 

c, Should there always be a doll for movement top right to bottom left across 4 and 3 (reversing from main to main)?

 

d, Where 3 and 6 are close together would 2 and 5 be combined into a double doll (three depending on the answer to b, above)

 

e, I have 10 levers with 3 locking bars if the items from Littlemore are to be reused. IS this possible?

 

TIA,

 

Richard.

Edited March 28, 2019 by richbrummitt

[The Stationmaster]

Hello,

 

Long time no post. Truth is I'm not motivated to finish the layout I have part completed - too many misgivings - so I'm thinking about something else. Whilst considering building an Inglenook for the 2mmSA Diamond Jubilee Layout Challenge (Littlemore was started for the Golden...) I was caught by two pictures; this one of Burbage and one In ...Goods Services of Ashton-Under-Wychwood that set me on a 'what if' of a goods loop and, on the opposite side of a double track main line, a single ended siding for either mileage or lay-over. This wouldn't meet the criteria for a challenge layout - although half might - but might stand a better chance of completion.

 

I have some questions on the first (actually third) stab at the diagram below and there are probably some more things I haven't yet thought of :/

 

signalling_cwbuildings.png

 

1 and 8 would be starter signals, hence they are not 440yds from the connections they protect. In my imagining there may, or may not, be a station off scene to the left, which may (or may not) form an extension should space permit in the future.

 

a, There could be a 'disc' like 9* at 3 but movements would not start from the goods loop, or could they? It will be significantly foreshortened such that a train would have to be through the goods shed to clear the trap (yes, even a light engine and toad).

 

b, Should 2 have a second doll such that the route is indicated from left to right across 3 to 3 or 3 to 4? What if movements do not occur from bottom left to top right across 3 and 4?

 

c, Should there always be a doll for movement top right to bottom left across 4 and 3 (reversing from main to main)?

 

d, Where 3 and 6 are close together would 2 and 5 be combined into a double doll (three depending on the answer to b, above)

 

e, I have 10 levers with 3 locking bars if the items from Littlemore are to be reused. IS this possible?

 

TIA,

 

Richard.

 

You could do the core of the layout the way you have drawn it although in reality there would be more running line stop signals, at least one in each direction but you could have them 'off scene' on a model without it looking too odd.  1 & 8 are effectively the Up & Down Home Signals - the Starters in both directions are the ones which would be off scene, along with the distants.  The only things you're short of is a disc at 4 to read through the slip connection which makes a crossover to the opposite line and a disc at 3 on the shed road to read out to the running line - it might be stretching things a bit too far to have them worked by the same lever and selected by the points (incidentally the point numbering also needs to be sorted on the single slip and connection to the shed road but that will add no levers).

 

The use of a double disc at 2 (or even a triple if combined with 5) is very much an era related thing and you could get away with it quite convincingly as you have sketched things.

 

The only one I would question is the use of a points indicator at 9 on the shed road and I think an independent disc would be more likely to be honest (but if you still happen to have the one you were working on why not use it and claim it hasn't been modernised or whatever?)

[phil-b259]

Hello,

 

Long time no post. Truth is I'm not motivated to finish the layout I have part completed - too many misgivings - so I'm thinking about something else. Whilst considering building an Inglenook for the 2mmSA Diamond Jubilee Layout Challenge (Littlemore was started for the Golden...) I was caught by two pictures; this one of Burbage and one In ...Goods Services of Ashton-Under-Wychwood that set me on a 'what if' of a goods loop and, on the opposite side of a double track main line, a single ended siding for either mileage or lay-over. This wouldn't meet the criteria for a challenge layout - although half might - but might stand a better chance of completion.

 

I have some questions on the first (actually third) stab at the diagram below and there are probably some more things I haven't yet thought of :/

 

signalling_cwbuildings.png

 

1 and 8 would be starter signals, hence they are not 440yds from the connections they protect. In my imagining there may, or may not, be a station off scene to the left, which may (or may not) form an extension should space permit in the future.

 

a, There could be a 'disc' like 9* at 3 but movements would not start from the goods loop, or could they? It will be significantly foreshortened such that a train would have to be through the goods shed to clear the trap (yes, even a light engine and toad).

 

b, Should 2 have a second doll such that the route is indicated from left to right across 3 to 3 or 3 to 4? What if movements do not occur from bottom left to top right across 3 and 4?

 

c, Should there always be a doll for movement top right to bottom left across 4 and 3 (reversing from main to main)?

 

d, Where 3 and 6 are close together would 2 and 5 be combined into a double doll (three depending on the answer to b, above)

 

e, I have 10 levers with 3 locking bars if the items from Littlemore are to be reused. IS this possible?

 

TIA,

 

Richard.

 

Firstly, as always with signalling, you should draw out ALL the signalling that will be controlled from the box - even if you only intend to model a tiny part of it. That way any confusion over whether signals are home / stop / starting signals can be avoided and it gives us a far grater understanding of how things will work.

 

Secondly, well done, you do seem to have got all the essentials in place.

 

 

1 & 8 are effectively the Up & Down Home Signals - the Starters in both directions are the ones which would be off scene, along with the distants.

 

Richard says that signals 1 and 8 are less than 440 yards from the points they protect and as such neither cannot be true Home signals (as in the end of the block section and start of station limits) without significantly compromising shunting operations.

 

Also given Richard says that there is likely to be a station to the left of the diagram, and the existence of no. 10 signal suggesting a advanced starter off scene to the right, then I would say No. 1 is indeed a starting signal with no. 8 being an 'inner Home'.

Edited November 21, 2017 by phil-b259

[31A]

The only thing I'd add is, I would have thought 3 would control the left hand points (as per your drawing) and also the right hand end of the single slip, and 4 would control the left hand end of the single slip and the points in the goods shed road.

[RailWest]

Just to be fussy, I wouldn't call the GS line a 'goods loop' as that tends to imply something more of a running line with a facing entry. IMHO it's just a siding that happens to be connected at both ends :-)

 

>>>.....1 and 8 are less than 440 yards from the points they protect and as such neither cannot be true Home signals (as in the end of the block section and start of station limits) without significantly compromising shunting operations.

 

Frankly I would not expect signals protecting points to be as far as 440 yards away anyway. But this is where you need to take the 'whole layout' into consideration. For example, if there is a station just off to the left, then its 'section signal' for the L to R direction might well be far enough away from signal 1 to provide the necessary clearance. Secondly, how much shunting from the GS across the slip onto the nearest line would actually take place that the proximity of 8 would be a problem?

[The Stationmaster]

 

 

Richard says that signals 1 and 8 are less than 440 yards from the points they protect and as such neither cannot be true Home signals (as in the end of the block section and start of station limits) without significantly compromising shunting operations.

 

Also given Richard says that there is likely to be a station to the left of the diagram, and the existence of no. 10 signal suggesting a advanced starter off scene to the right, then I would say No. 1 is indeed a starting signal with no. 8 being an 'inner Home'.

 

Somewhat adriift there Chris.  There is no need at all to place signals at least 440 yds in rear of points simply to create a Clearing Point (although it did happen at some LMS 'boxes).  In fact at the vast majority of wayside signalboxes I wouldn't be in the least surprised to find pointwork within the 440 yd Clearing Point (even at junctions in some places).  So No. 8 could well be the Home Signal as indeed could No.1 even if there is a station off to the left - there was nothing to say that there should be a stop signal in rear of a station platform and even if there was such a signal it would be most likely that the platform was within the Clearing Point in the vast majority of cases.

 

The Home Signal simply marks the end of the block section (and the start of Station Limits IF the 'box has another stop signal in advance of it).  Ideally, but not essentially although it would be good practice, if there is shunting taking place a second stop signal would be provided some distance in advance of the pointwork thereby creating Station Limits and acting as a potential limiting point for most shunting moves.

 

And as No1 is in rear of the signalbox under most British signal naming conventions it would indeed be a Home Signal although possibly qualified as 'Inner Home' or whatever and even if it also happens to be the Section Signal it would still be called the Home Signal in order to clarify its purpose in respect of the Block Regulations.

 

Taking as an example Savernake (GW) just to the east of the real Burbage Wharf at the East 'box all the pointwork in both directions was within the Clearing Point with the first stop signal (i.e. the Home Signal) immediately protecting the first points any approaching train would reach.  On the other hand Savernake West's Up Main Home Signal was sufficiently far in rear of the junction to create a Clearing Point between it and the Inner Home Signal (which immediately protected the junction points and trailing connection to the Up Refuge Siding.  But Savernake West's Down Main Home Signal was sited at the toe of the (facing) junction points.

 

Going a little further Pewsey's Up Home Signal was literally almost at the fouling point of the trailing crossover - which was therefore well inside the Clearing Point while the Up Starting Signal was a considerable distance in advance of the station platform.  But on the Down the Home Signal was a considerable distance back with the Inner Home immediately protecting the pointwork leaving the pointwork beyond the Clearing Point;  again the Starting Signal was a considerable distance in advance of the last point ends in the Down Line.

 

 

Interestingly one end of Bruton is almost exactly the same as Rich's proposed layout although the station, and more pointwork, is off to what would be the right on Rich's plan. And the Home Signal protecting that pointwork at the left end is exactly as Rich's No. 1. In the other direction the Home Signal is beyond the further end of the station although it is there to protect pointwork rather than for any other reason.

[RailWest]

Somewhat adriift there Chris.  ....

 

It wasn't me said that ! 

[richbrummitt]

Just to be fussy, I wouldn't call the GS line a 'goods loop' as that tends to imply something more of a running line with a facing entry. IMHO it's just a siding that happens to be connected at both ends :-)

 

>>>.....1 and 8 are less than 440 yards from the points they protect and as such neither cannot be true Home signals (as in the end of the block section and start of station limits) without significantly compromising shunting operations.

 

Frankly I would not expect signals protecting points to be as far as 440 yards away anyway. But this is where you need to take the 'whole layout' into consideration. For example, if there is a station just off to the left, then its 'section signal' for the L to R direction might well be far enough away from signal 1 to provide the necessary clearance. Secondly, how much shunting from the GS across the slip onto the nearest line would actually take place that the proximity of 8 would be a problem?

 

Fair point and badly written by me. I agree that it is indeed a siding. Assuming Down is right to left then I haven't decided whether the down siding is actually a down refuge. It was added to increase interest, as was the slip. Regarding the shunting question there should be virtually none. IF the down siding is a siding it is mileage so different to traffic that requires a shed. It wasn't my intention that the cross over (3) would be used as such for moving in the trailing direction from top to bottom but I presume it ​has​ to be signalled?

 

I've redrawn the plan according to comments and added the missing signals. I'm concluding that ten levers is not possible unless the function of 2 and 5 can be replaced by a single doll at 2? I've seen examples of where 11 and 12 would be selectable from a single lever (presumably based on the positions of 3 and 4 within the frame), but that alone wouldn't get me down below 11.

 

 

excuse the numbering, which for now I have just added to rather than starting over. 

Edited November 22, 2017 by richbrummitt

[RBAGE]

Burbage? Any relation do you think?

 

Sorry, I've just come off the drifting thread.

[Joseph_Pestell]

With the signal cabin right by the crossover, you can get rid of a couple of levers by having the signalman flag some movements.

[The Stationmaster]

The Down Siding (that sounds like a suitable name for it ) would simply be where traffic for/from 'Burbage' would be put off/picked up by Down Trains.  The trip serving the traffic handling part of the layout would run in the Up direction and its engine would (in a flat world) shunt stuff from/to that siding in a simlar way to the manner in which traffic arriving/leaving on the Down side would seem to have been worked at Savernake.  The problem at the real Burbage Wharf was that it was situated on a steep gradient falling towards the west although there was a very short stretch of level track in the vicinity - I'm not entirely sure where that short stretch was in relation to the siding and it was quite likely slightly to the west.

 

I'm not entirely sure about 11 & 12 being selected - the GWR definitely used selected ground discs in some locations although whether they were used in a situation exactly like this is not one I have come across (which of course doesn't mean that it didn't happen somewhere.   Use of a single disc to cover the function of both 2 and 5 is unlikely on an older frame because of the limitations of the locking (GWR twist etc locking did not allow conditional applications - that could only be done by conventional tappet locking and I doubt that a frame at a place like this would ever have been renewed with such locking or had tappet locking added simply to save a lever which already existed, especially when 5 would have been a red light disc and 2 was a white light disc.

 

The simplest way to save levers would be to remove the Down Siding which immediately saves 3 levers although you pay for that with reduced operational interest.

[RailWest]

The Down Siding (that sounds like a suitable name for it ) would simply be where traffic for/from 'Burbage' would be put off/picked up by Down Trains.  The trip serving the traffic handling part of the layout would run in the Up direction and its engine would (in a flat world) shunt stuff from/to that siding in a simlar way to the manner in which traffic arriving/leaving on the Down side would seem to have been worked at Savernake.  The problem at the real Burbage Wharf was that it was situated on a steep gradient falling towards the west although there was a very short stretch of level track in the vicinity - I'm not entirely sure where that short stretch was in relation to the siding and it was quite likely slightly to the west.

 

I'm not entirely sure about 11 & 12 being selected - the GWR definitely used selected ground discs in some locations although whether they were used in a situation exactly like this is not one I have come across (which of course doesn't mean that it didn't happen somewhere.   Use of a single disc to cover the function of both 2 and 5 is unlikely on an older frame because of the limitations of the locking (GWR twist etc locking did not allow conditional applications - that could only be done by conventional tappet locking and I doubt that a frame at a place like this would ever have been renewed with such locking or had tappet locking added simply to save a lever which already existed, especially when 5 would have been a red light disc and 2 was a white light disc.

 

The simplest way to save levers would be to remove the Down Siding which immediately saves 3 levers although you pay for that with reduced operational interest.

Although I can't recall the locations, I'm sure too that I have seen some GWR examples of selection with the equivalent of 2 and 5 and also 11 and 12. Indeed, I have vague recollection of the equivalent of selection 10 and 11 done somewhere.

 

Noting Stationmaster's comments about the lack of conditional locking on older frames and the unlikely addition of tappet locking to save on existing levers, maybe one might consider the 'story' that the Down Siding was not an original feature - so originally a frame of 10 levers including 1 spare, hence the later addition of some tappet locking to permit selection? Mind you, no doubt in reality they would have just added a few more levers.

 

Of course, the L&SWR would simply have turned a few into push-pull levers :-)

[richbrummitt]

The Down Siding (that sounds like a suitable name for it ) would simply be where traffic for/from 'Burbage' would be put off/picked up by Down Trains.  The trip serving the traffic handling part of the layout would run in the Up direction and its engine would (in a flat world) shunt stuff from/to that siding in a simlar way to the manner in which traffic arriving/leaving on the Down side would seem to have been worked at Savernake.  

 

<big snip> especially when 5 would have been a red light disc and 2 was a white light disc.

 

The simplest way to save levers would be to remove the Down Siding which immediately saves 3 levers although you pay for that with reduced operational interest.

 

I hadn't thought of operating it in the way you say. I assumed that goods for unloading in the shed would have been deposited or collected across the main in the other direction by the train engine that brought/removed those wagons. 

 

I know you've explained red and white signals to me before but I cannot remember the proper distinction (I can guess) or where to look. 

 

I think I'd rather lose the cross over first (arrangement would be as the East end of Shipton) rather than the extra siding because that would retain the most interesting operational elements however I also see that the West end of Shipton has no dolls on the goods shed siding.

 

It is true I could also make some more levers... 

Edited November 23, 2017 by richbrummitt

[richbrummitt]

Although I can't recall the locations, I'm sure too that I have seen some GWR examples of selection with the equivalent of 2 and 5 and also 11 and 12. <snip>

 

Of course, the L&SWR would simply have turned a few into push-pull levers :-)

 

Dainton?

 

The Scalefour lever frames don't support the push-pull operation either.

[micknich2003]

Dainton?

 

The Scalefour lever frames don't support the push-pull operation either.

It would if you cut a notch in the floorplate "Mid Stroke".

[The Stationmaster]

Rich white light and red light ground discs (and backing signals too in some cases) were basically a dodge to get round lack of conditional locking.  Thus on your plan Number 2 and number 10 would both have had white lights when at danger and would only be lowered when the points to which they applied were reverse.  However No.s 5 and 11 would have red lights in order to act as an absolute stop and because they could only be cleared when leading to the right line (11) or a siding (5).  A succession of discs could have white lights but they always red when at danger to a disc (or backing signal) with a red light.

 

Not to be confused with yellow ground discs (which the GWR did not use) because the Rules relating to passing a white light disc at danger were different from that applying to passing a yellow disc at danger.

[richbrummitt]

A little over a year on and I'm at a stage of committing to this. I'm not sure I have room for the additional interest of the down siding and looking at plans and pictures I cannot see evidence of a disc to at the RHS for access to the siding for an up train. 

 

According to advice I've drawn the whole arrangement and plan to implement all the levers even though 1,2 and 12 will be off stage. This means an increase to 12 levels but I think it's going to be the beat thing. 9 remains as an indicator and operates from the same lever as the connection. I've looked at several similar arrangements and concluded the numbering thus:

 

 

Any comments on the numbering welcome before I start working on the interlocking, particularly 4 through 8. Also on the disc colours.  I think 4 and 6 are red and 8 and 9 white if I understand Mike correctly. 

[Titanius Anglesmith]

I'm surprised no-one else has posted since you bumped this.  I'll make a few comments but I'm no expert on semaphore signalling, especially when it comes to variations between regions and eras.  So take my comments with a pinch of salt!

 

As I understand it, the exit from any siding onto the running line must be protected by a signal.  That means that the indicator at 9 should really be a shunt signal in its own right.  IMO there should also be a signal reading back from the up line over crossover 9 into the goods loop; otherwise what's the point in having a double-ended siding if you can't reverse into it from both ends?  Maybe there was one originally on the prototype, but it was removed at a later date?  I also agree with Joseph_Pestell regarding crossover 5; being right next to the 'box, the bobby could handsignal moves over the crossover without the need for fixed signals 4 and 6.

 

 

 

 

[RailWest]

>>>As I understand it, the exit from any siding onto the running line must be protected by a signal......

 

Like most such things, there were always exceptions, mainly due to the circumstances at the time of the original installation. Which is why, for example, Ashburton never had FPLs on the facing points over which passenger trains ran every day!

[RailWest]

I have located an undated photograph [#] of Burbage in GWR days, taken (probably) from the road bridge and looking westwards. It is quite clear that there was NO shunt disc for the move from the Up line into the siding over points '9'.

 

The rear of the shunt for the exit from the siding over '9' can be seen clearly between the up line and the siding. IMHO it is quite clearly an 'independent' disc worked from the SB.

 

# Page 100 of "A History of the Berks and Hants Line Reading to Westbury" by Peter Simmonds, pub Noodle Books 2014.

Edited March 30, 2019 by RailWest

[The Stationmaster]

On 28/03/2019 at 12:02, richbrummitt said:

A little over a year on and I'm at a stage of committing to this. I'm not sure I have room for the additional interest of the down siding and looking at plans and pictures I cannot see evidence of a disc to at the RHS for access to the siding for an up train. 

 

According to advice I've drawn the whole arrangement and plan to implement all the levers even though 1,2 and 12 will be off stage. This means an increase to 12 levels but I think it's going to be the beat thing. 9 remains as an indicator and operates from the same lever as the connection. I've looked at several similar arrangements and concluded the numbering thus:

 

 

Any comments on the numbering welcome before I start working on the interlocking, particularly 4 through 8. Also on the disc colours.  I think 4 and 6 are red and 8 and 9 white if I understand Mike correctly. 

It seems my response did not appear for some reason - so here it is again

 

 All the discs except 8 (Note *)  would be red light ones in the situation as drawn.  From your numbering I am assuming the 9 is effectively a point indicator working co-operatively with the crossover and they all seem to have been red light.  Lever numbering is ok as you've avoided any possible  'pull betweens'.

 

Note * - i In the case of 8 it really depends how long that spur is which the loop k leads towards with 7 crossover standing normal - if it is short and of little use fot r any sort of shunting then 8 would be a red ljght. 

[richbrummitt]

9 hours ago, RailWest said:

I have located an undated photograph [#] of Burbage in GWR days, taken (probably) from the road bridge and looking westwards. It is quite clear that there was NO shunt disc for the move from the Up line into the siding over points '9'.

 

The rear of the shunt for the exit from the siding over '9' can be seen clearly between the up line and the siding. IMHO it is quite clearly an 'independent' disc worked from the SB.

 

# Page 100 of "A History of the Berks and Hants Line Reading to Westbury" by Peter Simmonds, pub Noodle Books 2014.

 

Thank you for your informed opinion. I checked the shunt disc for access into the siding before I went to bed this morning (same book, because although it is in other titles it is probably best produced here compared to the others I have seen it in) and concluded the same. I also noted the independent disc. The photograph is clearly post grouping because of the small letters on the vans standing in the foreground so later than my chosen period. Inconclusive but even so I think I maybe applying rule one to this aspect of my model.

 

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

It seems my response did not appear for some reason - so here it is again

 

 All the discs except 8 (Note *)  would be red light ones in the situation as drawn.  From your numbering I am assuming the 9 is effectively a point indicator working co-operatively with the crossover and they all seem to have been red light.  Lever numbering is ok as you've avoided any possible  'pull betweens'.

 

Note * - i In the case of 8 it really depends how long that spur is which the loop k leads towards with 7 crossover standing normal - if it is short and of little use fot r any sort of shunting then 8 would be a red ljght. 

 

Thank you. The spurs are pretty long - capacities of at least 10 wagons beyond 9 and more to the left of 8. 

 

 

On working the interlocking I find another question I am unsure of: with 5 reverse would it be possible to clear both 4 and 10? I assume that it should be one or the other.

 

 

[Grovenor]

Quote

On working the interlocking I find another question I am unsure of: with 5 reverse would it be possible to clear both 4 and 10? I assume that it should be one or the other.

You assume correctly 4 would lock 10.

Regards

[RailWest]

Note also that:-

 

a). 3 and 6 would lock each other, although that might be conditional on whether 9 was normal or reverse

b) 3 should lock 9 both ways

c) 10 should lock both 5 and 7 both ways.

[RailWest]

Incidentally, out of curiosity I've looked now at the SRS GWR Box Register and they list Burbage as having 10 levers only. Hmm....I wonder if perhaps the frame was extended at any time......?